All Circular Reasoning is Linear

[surreptitious57]

Information can also be non physical which is how I think of it anyway
And separating the abstract from the physical is me keeping it simple

[TimeSeeker]

Information can also be non physical which is how I think of it anyway
And separating the abstract from the physical is me keeping it simple

We have very different conceptions of "simplicity" it seems. A system with less "moving parts" is simpler than one with more moving parts.
I have one less category in my head than you. So I am keeping it even simpler?

Is time abstract or physical? What is the utility of making such a distinction?

[surreptitious57]

These distinctions are not necessarily absolute but simply what works best for me
This is complex subject matter so simplification is needed to understand it better

[TimeSeeker]

This is complex subject matter so simplification is needed to understand it better

And how do you know when you have "understood" it? What do you experience when "understanding" takes place in your head?

These distinctions are not necessarily absolute but simply what works best for me

I am interested to hear the process you use to verify that it "works for you"? Again: what do you experience when it "works"?

[surreptitious57]

Understanding is based on a logical and chronological sequence of facts pertaining to the subject matter
Any break in this or anything that is too complex requires revision until an understanding can be reached

[TimeSeeker]

Understanding is based on a logical and chronological sequence of facts pertaining to the subject matter
Any break in this or anything that is too complex requires revision until an understanding can be reached

Logic produces consequences. Not understanding.
It is not immune to garbage in - garbage out. Your pre-suppositions could be wrong or you could have simply made an error in interpretation/deduction/inference when acquiring said understanding.

How do YOU keep yourself in check and ensure you haven’t?

How do you verify your understanding is correct?

How do you verify that you have indeed reached an “understanding” ?

I don’t know any other way except direct application. Demonstrate a practical application of your understanding.

Reality soon reveals misunderstanding/errors in reasoning.

[surreptitious57]

I do not accept anything as true without either evidence or proof or logic or reason. I do not accept anything based on belief because I do not do belief of any kind. I am not interested in being right because most of the time it is simply acquiring knowledge and understanding what it means
I usually am detached as emotion can affect how one interprets knowledge and it should as much as possible be accepted without emotion. I am not a machine but I try to be machine like with regard to how I process knowledge. It is a work in progress because it is the nature of such things

[TimeSeeker]

I do not accept anything as true without either evidence or proof or logic or reason. I do not accept anything based on belief because I do not do belief of any kind. I am not interested in being right because most of the time it is simply acquiring knowledge and understanding what it means
I usually am detached as emotion can affect how one interprets knowledge and it should as much as possible be accepted without emotion. I am not a machine but I try to be machine like with regard to how I process knowledge. It is a work in progress because it is the nature of such things

Ok, but you could have misunderstood/misinterpreted the evidence. Misunderstood the logic. It is entirely possible that despite the “truth” being correctly recorded by the authors of said truth - you misunderstood its meaning or significance!

Because language is ambiguous and imprecise and errors in communication happen.

Look how hard it is for us to understand each other! And we are here - able to “clarify” any misunderstandings and ask questions! Why is it that you think you can read “truth” and understand it perfectly and without error?

So how do you verify that you have understood the “truth” as the authors of the “truth” intended it to be understood? How would you know if you didn’t?

What does it mean to ‘understand’? Is your understanding the same as my understanding? What do you use ‘understanding’ for?

[surreptitious57]

As I said it is a work in progress but there has to be noticeable improvement over time else it is a complete waste of time
I understand you perfectly and so presumably you do not understand me but I learn from others not the other way around

[TimeSeeker]

As I said it is a work in progress but there has to be noticeable improvement

Improvement in what?
What change do you expect to notice as time progresses?

[surreptitious57]

Improvement in my ability to understand complex subject matter through applied use of logic and reason
The change would be the ease with which it could be understood now when it was not understood before

[TimeSeeker]

Improvement in my ability to understand complex subject matter through applied use of logic and reason
The change would be the ease with which it could be understood now when it was not understood before

I asked you what it means “to understand”. You said (paraphrased) “observable improvement”.

Observable improvement in what?

To say “observable improvement in understanding” is circular.

What other thing improves when your understanding improves? What is the observable effect of improved understanding?

[surreptitious57]

The observable effect is greater awareness of the subject matter
This is what happens to me whenever my understanding improves

[TimeSeeker]

The observable effect is greater awareness of the subject matter
This is what happens to me whenever my understanding improves

And what other thing improves as your awareness increases? What is the observable effect of “greater awareness”?

Or is it just a feeling?

Would an external observer notice any effect when your awareness on a subject matter improves? e.g would I see a difference?

[surreptitious57]

An external observer might notice but not necessarily every single time
That is however purely hypothetical since it would not actually happen
It is not required anyway since it is only for my benefit and no one else