All Circular Reasoning is Linear

[TimeSeeker]

You are making no sense. What is the conception of information?

This is a good question, with no easy solutions.

What mechanism do you propose I can use to copy a concept/idea that is currently in my head, into your head?

[Atla]

You are making no sense. What is the conception of information?

This is a good question, with no easy solutions.

What mechanism do you propose I can use to copy a CONCEPT that is currently in my head, into your head?

If a concept is made up, but using logic we can do useful things with it, does the concept turn real to you?

[TimeSeeker]

If a concept is made up, but using logic we can do useful things with it, does the concept turn real to you?

You are attempting to frame the debate.

Can you give me an example of a concept that is not made up? The word "concept" is a concept!

The word "universe" is a concept.
The word "galaxy" is a concept.
The word "Earth" is a concept.
The word "atom" is a concept.
The word "quark" is a concept.
The word "human" is a concept.

The universe just is. One. Big. Giant. Whole. It has no categories, or things like "galaxies" or "planets" or "atoms".

All categories (concepts! WORDS!) are man-made. We, humans - cut up the universe into boxes!

[Atla]

If a concept is made up, but using logic we can do useful things with it, does the concept turn real to you?

You are attempting to frame the debate.

Can you give me an example of a concept that is not made up? The word "concept" is a concept!

The word "universe" is a concept.
The word "galaxy" is a concept.
The word "Earth" is a concept.
The word "atom" is a concept.
The word "quark" is a concept.
The word "human" is a concept.

The universe just is. One. Big. Giant. Whole. It has no categories, or things like "galaxies" or "planets" or "atoms".

All categories (concepts! WORDS!) are man-made. The map is not the territory!

The universe, galaxy, Earth, atoms, quarks, humans are all there whether or not we conceptualize them. They are the concrete.

Information is only a concept in our head that refers to other concepts. It doesn't directly refer to anything in the real world, it's the asbtract.

[TimeSeeker]

Information is only a concept in our head that refers to other concept.

Yes. So is "the universe". Just a concept.

Whatever is there is there. The WHOLE DAMN THING!

Whatever it is. However big it is. However we call it (Universe in English, вселенная in Russian, σύμπαν in Greek, 宇宙 in Chinese).
U(x) in Mathematics.

However we describe it and cut it up into boxes (galaxies, planets, stars).

It doesn't directly refer to anything in the real world, it's the asbtract.

OK. You call it abstract. I call it concept. Semantics

[Atla]

Information is only a concept in our head that refers to other concept.

Yes. So is "the universe"

Whatever is there is there. The WHOLE DAMN THING!

Whatever it is. However big it is. However we call it (Universe so far).
However we describe it and cut it up into boxes (galaxies, planets, stars).

It doesn't directly refer to anything in the real world, it's the asbtract.

OK. You call it abstract. I call it concept. Semantics

You still understand nothing.

You can divide the universe or whatever any way you want. But you will never find a part that's "information".

[TimeSeeker]

You can divide the universe or whatever any way you want. But you will never find a part that's "information".

And when you glue all the pieces together and put them in a nice Lego-like structure you will never find a thing that is a 'universe' either!

Whatever conception/description/copy of the universe you make - it is INCOMPLETE.

Because you are INSIDE the fucking universe. So all your descriptions of it are recursive!

[Atla]

You can divide the universe or whatever any way you want. But you will never find a part that's "information".

And when you glue all the pieces together and put them in a nice Lego-like structure you will never find a thing that is a 'universe' either!

The universe is always there, it's not possible not to find it.

[TimeSeeker]

The universe is always there, it's not possible not to find it.

I am not looking for it. I am INSIDE it! I am part of it.

It is impossible to conceptualise THE WHOLE DAMN THING! ALL AT ONCE!

That is why you cut it up into boxes like "galaxies" and "planets"

[Atla]

The universe is always there, it's not possible not to find it.

I am not looking for it. I am INSIDE it! I am part of it.

It is impossible to conceptualise THE WHOLE DAMN THING! ALL AT ONCE!

That is why you cut it up into boxes like "galaxies" and "planets"

That's not the point.

Show me something that's information.

[TimeSeeker]

That's not the point.

Show me something that's information.

Yes it is.

Show me something that's a "universe"

[Atla]

That's not the point.

Show me something that's information.

Yes it is.

Show me something that's a "universe"

Stop avoiding the issue. Everything around here is the universe, at least a part of it.

Now can you literally show me information? You know, the thing you base everything on?

[TimeSeeker]

Stop avoiding the issue. Everything around here is the universe, at least a part of it.

OK. I don't understand. Is everything around here the universe or part of the universe?

Those are different claims.

Now can you literally show me information? You know, the thing you base everything on?

I promise I will. Right after you literally show me "the universe".

[Atla]

Stop avoiding the issue. Everything around here is the universe, at least a part of it.

OK. I don't understand. Is everything around here the universe or part of the universe?

Those are different claims.

Now can you literally show me information? You know, the thing you base everything on?

I promise I will. Right after you literally show me "the universe".

Everything around here is a part of the universe. It's not possible not to show it. You are playing dumb to avoid the issue.

[TimeSeeker]

Everything around here is a part of the universe. It's not possible not to show it. You are playing dumb to avoid the issue.

No. I am playing smart by avoiding your false dichotomy. Because you are trying to frame the argument. I won't let you do that
My frame of reference is broader than yours. That is to say - I know more than you do.

So it's part of the universe then? I agree.

But I didn't ask you for "part of the universe". I was very specific in my words. I asked you to show me "The Universe".
The WHOLE thing. All of it! Not just parts of it.