The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

Moderators: AMod, iMod

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:03 pm A "limit" is a math concept and only pertains to some physical phenomena. For example, they have no meaning for phenomena described by fractals. Mathematics itself, like language is only a method invented by the human mind, and also has no existence (or meaning) independent of human consciousness.

Until you understand the difference between the "man-made" and the metaphysical I do not think you can make much progress in philosophy.

Randy
I don't know about that. What non-man-made language would you use to describe/conceptualise the metaphysical in?

My metaphysical grounding is information/entropy. They are mathematical/probabalistic constructs.

Mathematics is a man-made language. Therefore I do not draw a distinction between the metaphysical and the epistemic.

But if you mean that you can’t make progress in philosophy without learning how to draw distinctions without a difference - then yeah. I agree.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:03 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:20 pm Considering all abstract and physical phenomenon stem from "limit" ...
A "limit" is a math concept and only pertains to some physical phenomena. For example, they have no meaning for phenomena described by fractals. Mathematics itself, like language is only a method invented by the human mind, and also has no existence (or meaning) independent of human consciousness.

Until you understand the difference between the "man-made" and the metaphysical I do not think you can make much progress in philosophy.

Randy
Actually "limit" stems back to the presocratics and is not limited to strictly a mathematical conception only considering all conceptions are mental limits in themselves.

In these respects all limits exist through limits with basic limits such as the line, circle and point existing through all abstract and physical realities.

This statement is a linear one as it is directed in a specific direction.

Where some cultures direct a statement from left to right (as a projection of the observer away from the origin to form reality) or right to left (as a projection towards the observer to form the observer) the statement is formed by its linear projection regardless.

This projective capacity of reason, as fundamentally being directional, effectively observes reasoning as having a geometric nature where the chain of axioms (the words) exist as a series of points existing through points synonymous in both form and function to the line.

Because the statement, such as this one, requires an inherently directive capacity it in itself which observes a form and function of limit as directed movement where the statement exists if and only if it continues from and through further statements.

The statement, as a linear limit, exists through further linear limits and hence we can observe all linear logic as the observation and foundation of relativism where one part exists through another with the linear limit being the foundation of all relating parts.

Considering the linear statement requires the progression of one axiom to another, thrugh the word, sentence, paragraph, etc., the axioms gains its definition by being directed to further axioms. However consider the axiom in itself is strictly a self evident point, fundamentally inverting to another point, what we observe is a repitition of axioms as approximates to other axioms where each axiom is an approximate of the other.

In these respects the axiom is directed towards itself and maintains an intradimensional nature as a point of pure self-direction which is approximated through multiple axioms under a multiplicity of axioms (considering we cannot observe one pure axiom except through multiple axioms).

In these respects the axiom takes on a causal nature where it exists through the connection to another axiom as effect while being a cause in itself.

Because the axiom exists through the axiom, all definition within linear arguments maintain a third degree of circularity where using this sentence as an example "Because" is defined through "the" (in the beginning of the sentence) and "the" is defined through "because". Now "because" and "the" while defining eachother, give a degree of definition this definition requires a further expansion of definition.

In these respects the axiom exists fundamentally through the directive qualities of the point (self-directive and inversive) line (projected past itself) and the circle (projecting and self directing) and it dependent upon the triadic base of the point line and circle in geometry as directive limits.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

Reasoning is computation.

Algorithms are geometric through spacetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space%E2% ... e_tradeoff

The time-complexity of an algorithm is basic economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_complexity

Or in the language of Kahneman (Thinking, fast and slow) System 1 and System 2 thinking
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:09 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:50 pm The question of proof, as having a foundation of logic, effectively requires a symmetry between the subjective state of the observer and the proof itself, hence proof is merely a connection between objectivity and subjectivity and provides a foundation for consciousness.

In these respects we are left with a circulation between the subjective and objective that has an objective element to reason stemming from the foundations of the limit of the circle.
Broadly - yes. But the framework of logic itself tells us nothing except that the theory is internally consistent (with the axioms).

Logic/mathematics just calculates consequences. It says nothing of whether the internal structure of logic itself corresponds to reality in any way.
So IF one is to turn the theory into a real, physical machine (ignoring manufacturing imperfections for the moment) then it's reasonable to believe that the machine will behave in approximately the same manner as the logic/mathematics does in theory.

This is the notion of "Realization" in systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realization_(systems)
This is true in the context of Constructivist epistemology ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct ... istemology )

Either way - Mathematics allows us to create models. Their ability to predict real-world events is a separate matter.

Mathematics is just another language. It is very easy to begin describing things in Mathematics which don't correspond to reality in any meaningful or useful way.
This internal consistentency exists through a self-directive mirror effect, we observe in nature, where the replication of one limit through another maintains a constant similarity in percievably different variables that observes an inherent self directed connection.

From this self-directed capacity as one limit being directed to another, even observing the limits of abstract and physical reality stemming from limit, we can observe all physical and abstract realities connected through the limit as a connector, separator, and inverter.

This connection, separation and inversion exists fundamentally through alternation as replication where the formless is given form through the application of directive qualities which localize the phenomenon into a form. In this manner, through alternation as a frequency through repetition, we can observe certain constant laws mirroring between the limits of the abstract and physical where physicality (as the relation of parts) exists as a low degree of the abstract. Dually abstractness rises from the low degree of abstractness, both through alternation with alternation observing the nature of the circle through approximation of relative lines.

In these respects all language stems from limits as both constant and relativistic and maintains itself universally through the limit. All being, whether abstract or physical arise form, exist thorugh and go back to limit with the limit existing as its own axiom and the foundation of the axiom with this in itself being the source of objectivity and subjectivity.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:38 pm Reasoning is computation.

Algorithms are geometric through spacetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space%E2% ... e_tradeoff

The time-complexity of an algorithm is basic economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_complexity

Or in the language of Kahneman (Thinking, fast and slow) System 1 and System 2 thinking
Time exists through the relation of parts as an inherent frequency of these parts acting as a directed part in itself...hence a part. Time is muliplicity as an inversion of unity synonymous to approximation as randomness.

In this manner the space time tradeoff observe the density of information being subject to an increase in speed as the repitition of specific information occurs as a rate so high, barely any division occurs, and an appearance of unity is obtained.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:42 pm This internal consistentency exists through a self-directive mirror effect, we observe in nature, where the replication of one limit through another maintains a constant similarity in percievably different variables that observes an inherent self directed connection.

(ETC...)
I don't know how to parse all that - it's too esoteric for me and English is not known for its ability to convey information unambiguously :)

Entropy is chaos. Rules produce structure/patterns in the chaotic. Some patterns are self-similar. Some are pseudo-random. Some are self dis-similar.
Pictures are worth a million words (and why re-invent the wheel).

http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2017/06/ ... -rule-30s/
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:46 pm Time exists through the relation of parts as an inherent frequency of these parts acting as a directed part in itself...hence a part. Time is muliplicity as an inversion of unity synonymous to approximation as randomness.

In this manner the space time tradeoff observe the density of information being subject to an increase in speed as the repitition of specific information occurs as a rate so high, barely any division occurs, and an appearance of unity is obtained.
Again - I don't know how to parse any of that. It sounds like complexity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation ) and Emergence ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence ) but English...
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:52 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:42 pm This internal consistentency exists through a self-directive mirror effect, we observe in nature, where the replication of one limit through another maintains a constant similarity in percievably different variables that observes an inherent self directed connection.

(ETC...)
I don't know how to parse all that - it's too esoteric for me and English is not known for its ability to convey information unambiguously :)

Entropy is chaos. Rules produce structure/patterns in the chaotic. Some patterns are self-similar. Some are pseudo-random. Some are self dis-similar.
Pictures are worth a million words (and why re-invent the wheel).

http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2017/06/ ... -rule-30s/
All reality replicates itself, with this replication being the replication of one symmetry to another.

So, a line exists. It replicates to an angle, triangle, square, etc, with all these forms replicating the line itself as a constant which maintains a unity between these objects.

The same applies for the limits of sounds where they extends from a certain pitch, as a frequency, and extending from that frequency (with the frequency existing through the basic projective nature of the line).

So the change of one variable to another effectively observes these variables connected through specific limits.

Entropy is the absence of structure premised in a zero dimensionality (projecting toward nothingness or a 0d point) where the phenomenon breaks into further phenomena. In these respects entropy is an form of inversion from unity into multiplicity.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:58 pm
TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:52 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:42 pm This internal consistentency exists through a self-directive mirror effect, we observe in nature, where the replication of one limit through another maintains a constant similarity in percievably different variables that observes an inherent self directed connection.

(ETC...)
I don't know how to parse all that - it's too esoteric for me and English is not known for its ability to convey information unambiguously :)

Entropy is chaos. Rules produce structure/patterns in the chaotic. Some patterns are self-similar. Some are pseudo-random. Some are self dis-similar.
Pictures are worth a million words (and why re-invent the wheel).

http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2017/06/ ... -rule-30s/
All reality replicates itself, with this replication being the replication of one symmetry to another.

So, a line exists. It replicates to an angle, triangle, square, etc, with all these forms replicating the line itself as a constant which maintains a unity between these objects.

The same applies for the limits of sounds where they extends from a certain pitch, as a frequency, and extending from that frequency (with the frequency existing through the basic projective nature of the line).

So the change of one variable to another effectively observes these variables connected through specific limits.

Entropy is the absence of structure premised in a zero dimensionality (projecting toward nothingness or a 0d point) where the phenomenon breaks into further phenomena. In these respects entropy is an form of inversion from unity into multiplicity.
No. Not all patterns self-replicate. Some converge to extinction. Some converge to 'world domination'. But the patterns are NOT separable from the rules. If the rules change, then the replication pattern changes too. This is the Butterfly effect.

As a way of groking this intuitively check out Conway's game of life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:53 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:46 pm Time exists through the relation of parts as an inherent frequency of these parts acting as a directed part in itself...hence a part. Time is muliplicity as an inversion of unity synonymous to approximation as randomness.

In this manner the space time tradeoff observe the density of information being subject to an increase in speed as the repitition of specific information occurs as a rate so high, barely any division occurs, and an appearance of unity is obtained.
Again - I don't know how to parse any of that. It sounds like complexity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation ) and Emergence ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence ) but English...

All time is an observation of movement from one part to another. We can see evidence of this through the clock. This movement from one part to another observes the relation of parts having a form of repitition where the part alternates from non-part (space between lines on clock) to another part (line) and back. The alternation of part and no part observes time as a form of alternation in which a part inherently cycles between existence and non-existence. The faster this alternation occurs, the closer to unity it appears which exists fundamentally as an observation of timelessness.

Time is alternation as seperation with this alternation being an approximate movement of universal circularity, hence it is a reflection of constants.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:04 pm All time is an observation of movement from one part to another. We can see evidence of this through the clock. This movement from one part to another observes the relation of parts having a form of repitition where the part alternates from non-part (space between lines on clock) to another part (line) and back. The alternation of part and no part observes time as a form of alternation in which a part inherently cycles between existence and non-existence. The faster this alternation occurs, the closer to unity it appears which exists fundamentally as an observation of timelessness.

Time is alternation as seperation with this alternation being an approximate movement of universal circularity, hence it is a reflection of constants.
Except we have two conceptions of 'time' in physics. The one from General Relativity and the one from Quantum Mechanics. They are incompatible with each other and so I *think* there is a bug in scientific metaphysics. See my blog for a (very) high level introduction: http://www.whatisti.me/2018/09/02/Openi ... s-box.html

Also. Evidence is mounting up that we *MAY* be able to 'pause' movement through space, time AND spacetime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_crystal
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:01 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:58 pm
TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:52 pm
I don't know how to parse all that - it's too esoteric for me and English is not known for its ability to convey information unambiguously :)

Entropy is chaos. Rules produce structure/patterns in the chaotic. Some patterns are self-similar. Some are pseudo-random. Some are self dis-similar.
Pictures are worth a million words (and why re-invent the wheel).

http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2017/06/ ... -rule-30s/
All reality replicates itself, with this replication being the replication of one symmetry to another.

So, a line exists. It replicates to an angle, triangle, square, etc, with all these forms replicating the line itself as a constant which maintains a unity between these objects.

The same applies for the limits of sounds where they extends from a certain pitch, as a frequency, and extending from that frequency (with the frequency existing through the basic projective nature of the line).

So the change of one variable to another effectively observes these variables connected through specific limits.

Entropy is the absence of structure premised in a zero dimensionality (projecting toward nothingness or a 0d point) where the phenomenon breaks into further phenomena. In these respects entropy is an form of inversion from unity into multiplicity.
No. Not all patterns self-replicate. Some converge to extinction. Some converge to 'world domination'. But the patterns are NOT separable from the rules. If the rules change, then the replication pattern changes too. This is the Butterfly effect.

As a way of groking this intuitively check out Conway's game of life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life
All patterns exist from a fundamental boundary of limits, where the limits themselves replicate and change over time but fundamentally stay the same as one limit.

For example the butterfly may reproduce over time, become extinct, but the fundamentally qualities of the butterfly (wings, insectoid body) replicate through time and space. These qualities are defined through numerical aspects (6 to 8 legs, 4 parts to the wing) and qualitative ones (described above) which replicate through various aspects of the further insects. The qualities and quantities of the insects further replicate through other organisms (Iegs, head, abdomen, etc.) with qualtities of the organisms reflecting other organic and non-organic properties (branching of veins and nerves found in plant life, rivers, and mineral deposits.

All patterns are premised in the limit of the line with the line effecitively folding through itself, under the ratio where 1 line is both composed of and composed multiple lines, as a directed movement which gives foundation to form.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:10 pm All patterns exist from a fundamental boundary of limits, where the limits themselves replicate and change over time but fundamentally stay the same as one limit.
Limits/rules - semantics? It may not be wise to mix them up in Mathematics. limit-functions
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:10 pm For example the butterfly may reproduce over time, become extinct, but the fundamentally qualities of the butterfly (wings, insectoid body) replicate through time and space.

These qualities are defined through numerical aspects (6 to 8 legs, 4 parts to the wing) and qualitative ones (described above) which replicate through various aspects of the further insects. The qualities and quantities of the insects further replicate through other organisms (Iegs, head, abdomen, etc.) with qualtities of the organisms reflecting other organic and non-organic properties (branching of veins and nerves found in plant life, rivers, and mineral deposits.
You are describing iterative evolution (not Darwin's one, a more general sense).
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:10 pm All patterns are premised in the limit of the line with the line effecitively folding through itself, under the ratio where 1 line is both composed of and composed multiple lines, as a directed movement which gives foundation to form.
Can't parse this either.

Form follows function AND failure. Those forms that didn't survive selection (entropy) are no longer with us. Those that did - are.

Broadly this is the Lindy effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:08 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:04 pm All time is an observation of movement from one part to another. We can see evidence of this through the clock. This movement from one part to another observes the relation of parts having a form of repitition where the part alternates from non-part (space between lines on clock) to another part (line) and back. The alternation of part and no part observes time as a form of alternation in which a part inherently cycles between existence and non-existence. The faster this alternation occurs, the closer to unity it appears which exists fundamentally as an observation of timelessness.

Time is alternation as seperation with this alternation being an approximate movement of universal circularity, hence it is a reflection of constants.
Except we have two conceptions of 'time' in physics. The one from General Relativity and the one from Quantum Mechanics. They are incompatible with each other and so I *think* there is a bug in scientific metaphysics. See my blog for a (very) high level introduction: http://www.whatisti.me/2018/09/02/Openi ... s-box.html

Also. Evidence is mounting up that we *MAY* be able to 'pause' movement through space, time AND spacetime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_crystal
Relativity observes times as relation of parts where quantum mechanics observes an inherent level of connectivity which gives a different conception of time.

All parts exist through entropy as an inversion from a unity to multiplicity under the absence of form in 0d space (0d point).

This 0d space observes a constant median between all phenomena where only the phenomena exist considering nothingness is not existent.

So we have relativity as multiplicity and quantum mechanic as 1 connection through many, effectively speaking an a dualism between relativistic and constant nature of reality. This dualism between multiplicity and consistency observes a third element of synthetic reality where phenomena strictly exist as limits....I argue.



To pause movement is effectively just slow it down, for a period of time in which case it resumes movement. This pausing of movement effectively is just dividing reality into certain ratios where the phenomena appears non moving relative to other movements.
TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: The 13 Prime Directive Laws of Reason (original/incomplete)

Post by TimeSeeker »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:18 pm To pause movement is effectively just slow it down, for a period of time in which case it resumes movement. This pausing of movement effectively is just dividing reality into certain ratios where the phenomena appears non moving relative to other movements.
Yes. Engineers call this Equilibrium. Mathematicians call this isomorphisms. Logicians call this identity. Quantum physicists call it entanglement.

If two objects are self-similar in all possible properties that we know how to observe/measure. Then we can say they are identical.

Identity is only possible when there is no change. And even then it is contingent on us ignoring coordinates in space.
Post Reply