The Truth

[Walker]

Experiences such as yours can offer (in my opinion) more substance and insight than posts on this site that are simply aimed at telling people "how it is" -- and a lot of people seem prone to do that.

Isn't Sage-ish saying how it is?

Doesn’t the witness see the truth in one that is true for all?

[Lacewing]

Experiences such as yours can offer (in my opinion) more substance and insight than posts on this site that are simply aimed at telling people "how it is" -- and a lot of people seem prone to do that.

Isn't Sage-ish saying how it is?

I do not see/hear her claiming some kind of ultimate truth for all. Rather, it seems that she is pointing to a type of "in-your-face" real truth that can be experienced, as opposed to imaginings of ultimate truth.

Doesn’t the witness see the truth in one that is true for all?

There is a difference between recognizing a drop of water from the ocean (so-to-speak), and claiming that the ocean is a certain way that applies to all.

[TimeSeeker]

I think the notions of 'truth' and 'objectivity' are actually more harmful than useful.

Together they invent an imaginary reference frame, the very groundwork necessary for a God-belief to settle in a human mind. Gods emerged because sufficiently many people believed in 'objective X' when even science is losing its grasp on 'objectivity' having two unreconciled definitions for 'time' ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_time ).

Is Truth the 21st century equivalent of God? I am convinced that it is. It's just a linguistic marketing slogan.

Having accepted empiricism to mean experience and developed some EQ (in large parts thanks to my girlfriend's perseverance), I have come to terms and tossed out the lie that science requires one to put aside their 'feelings'. Feelings/emotions are information! You just have to learn to interpret them correctly and take them into account. And it's surprising me just how accurate they are. Way more accurate than my 'rational brain' is.

I have become a far better scientist now that I trust my gut. Which is, ironically - extreme subjectivism! Which necessarily requires the skills to teach your ideas and build consensus with other humans. Of course - there is no such thing as free lunch. Getting to this perspective required nearly 2 decades of practice/applied science, but I am glad I got here before I hit 40. I have a few decades to make use of these skills.

And as a counter-argument - pursuing Truth and figuring out that it's a wild goose chase was a little disappointing. Until I recognised that the journey itself may have been the reward. if that is Philosophy's intention and purpose, then - well played. You fooled me, but thank you anyway

[Sage-ish]

Lacewing, I am touched that your shared your experience about the murder-suicide here. It's a life-changing event which leads to a series of events where one can recognize, within those experiences, what if real and what is speculation. I'd actually like to explore your thoughts of this subject. Meeting someone who has been through something similar is rare, almost non-existent. There are things I'd like to know about how the rest of your family handled it relative to you. My extended family was oh so religious, but they didn't bother to try to comfort me or help. Friends did not call, etc. I wonder if it was the same for you. I had considered my large family a buffer against calamity. It was not. I'd like to discuss this through a private message or email. If you go to my website which is listed in my profile there is a contact page if you'd like to send an email instead of a private message.

walker, I am not claiming to know one truth. Lacewing is right when she said I was talking about an in your face reality that cannot be denied. What we each believe philosophically to be true is true for us. It often differs from the next person we talk to. My philosophical truth when I was 10 differed from when I was 20, 30, 40 etc. Now, I'm moving into a different space. Is there one over all philosophical "truth"?" How would I know? It's all speculation as far as I can tell. Years back theologians talked about how many angels fit on the head of a pin. They don't talk about that now. Talking about the ultimate truth is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Trying to convince someone else of one's own ulitimate truth at the expense of respecting their right to have their own, is often futile and disrespectful. That's how it was in the church I grew up in. People who did not believe the "gospel" according to Melvin the minister were told they were damned to hell. His "truth" destroyed a lot of lives. One of them was my brother's. When my brother confessed to the murders, he said, "Religion has ruined my life. I have never had any fun", and he sobbed. But Melvin was only preaching the "truth" as he knew it. It is what we all do.

Timeseeker, we all need balance. Sometimes trusting the gut is good, and sometimes it leads to indigestion.

I learn and grow and in the process try to allow others the space they need to define their own truth. It's all I know to do.

[TimeSeeker]

As with the topic: BS, Walker! The truth is not dependent upon anyone's knowledge, it just is the actuality, the facts, the reality.

That is a position incompatible with the 2nd law of thermodynamics and can be dismantled with a thought experiment called Maxwell's demon (I am sure Maxwell had his reasons for not calling it God). Reality constantly changes!

And so whether you call it 'truth', 'the universe', 'entropy' or a 'banana'. It doesn't matter. It's just a label that tells you nothing. Irrespective of how many other adjectives like 'actuality' or 'facts' you add to it. You are attempting to invent what physicists call a reference frame ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference ). An objective reference frame (God; or Maxwell's demon) is unattainable for us, humans. We can agree to contrive one - because they are useful tools for standardization, but let us not forget that we INVENTED it for a purpose and that such reference frames still exist only in our heads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR23aMjIHIY

[Sage-ish]

Leonardo da Vinci said it best: He who truly knows has no occasion to shout. Since none of us truly know, we are all still shouting.

[Walker]

Experiences such as yours can offer (in my opinion) more substance and insight than posts on this site that are simply aimed at telling people "how it is" -- and a lot of people seem prone to do that.

Isn't Sage-ish saying how it is?

I do not see/hear her claiming some kind of ultimate truth for all. Rather, it seems that she is pointing to a type of "in-your-face" real truth that can be experienced, as opposed to imaginings of ultimate truth.

Doesn’t the witness see the truth in one that is true for all?

There is a difference between recognizing a drop of water from the ocean (so-to-speak), and claiming that the ocean is a certain way that applies to all.

Truth applies to all.

If what you’ve found does not apply to all, question the truth of what you’ve found.

The certain way that the ocean is to all, is wet.

[TimeSeeker]

Isn't Sage-ish saying how it is?

I do not see/hear her claiming some kind of ultimate truth for all. Rather, it seems that she is pointing to a type of "in-your-face" real truth that can be experienced, as opposed to imaginings of ultimate truth.

Doesn’t the witness see the truth in one that is true for all?

There is a difference between recognizing a drop of water from the ocean (so-to-speak), and claiming that the ocean is a certain way that applies to all.

Truth applies to all.

If what you’ve found does not apply to all, question the truth of what you’ve found.

The certain way that the ocean is to all, is wet.

The certain way that nature is to all species - is deadly.

Excessive love of “Mother Nature”, exceeding that of one’s love for humanity is akin to embracing the Grimm Reaper.

Truth?

[Walker]

For example, if you think it’s true that you like pink sweaters but not everyone does, then question if your like for pink sweaters is really a truth.

[Walker]

walker, I am not claiming to know one truth. Lacewing is right when she said I was talking about an in your face reality that cannot be denied. What we each believe philosophically to be true is true for us. It often differs from the next person we talk to. My philosophical truth when I was 10 differed from when I was 20, 30, 40 etc. Now, I'm moving into a different space. Is there one over all philosophical "truth"?" How would I know? It's all speculation as far as I can tell. Years back theologians talked about how many angels fit on the head of a pin. They don't talk about that now. Talking about the ultimate truth is an exercise in mental gymnastics. Trying to convince someone else of one's own ulitimate truth at the expense of respecting their right to have their own, is often futile and disrespectful. That's how it was in the church I grew up in. People who did not believe the "gospel" according to Melvin the minister were told they were damned to hell. His "truth" destroyed a lot of lives. One of them was my brother's. When my brother confessed to the murders, he said, "Religion has ruined my life. I have never had any fun", and he sobbed. But Melvin was only preaching the "truth" as he knew it. It is what we all do.

Hey Sage-ish. I figure that no one would ever choose to be in that fraternity you write about. I know that for many in life, the benefits outweighing the cost of anything is not ever certain for we can't go back and live under different conditions than what we had. It does a heart good to see that you have thrived and lived in spite of, or because of. More than most the fraternity knows the meaning of, the only way around is through.

I figure that's true for the fraternity.

walker, I am not claiming to know one truth.

Lacewing is the only one as usual making that claim on behalf of others, or referencing that claim. Hopefully she's reading.

[Sage-ish]

Thank you, walker, for your understanding of my situation Lacewing was just saying that when your are smacked in the face with an event, like murder, that is truth. It's not philosophical, it's empirical. She and I have both faced it and were forever changed.

[Walker]

Thank you, walker, for your understanding of my situation Lacewing was just saying that when your are smacked in the face with an event, like murder, that is truth. It's not philosophical, it's empirical. She and I have both faced it and were forever changed.

Would you say it’s highly probably that what I wrote about the fraternity is true for each member, starting with you and Lacewing? If so, then the statements are more than empathy for your particular situation. They are in fact, truth.

For example, you made a point of displaying love to your brother.

Do you think this is important for all people in such a situation to do this, or is this just a personal, relative truth?

Since I only read the first thirty pages or so, forgive me if your realization may have arc’ed away from displaying love to your brother, however without reading all the book I have a sense that your character did not change, and remained true to the solidarity of love within other situations.

[Walker]

I do not see/hear her claiming some kind of ultimate truth for all. Rather, it seems that she is pointing to a type of "in-your-face" real truth that can be experienced, as opposed to imaginings of ultimate truth.


There is a difference between recognizing a drop of water from the ocean (so-to-speak), and claiming that the ocean is a certain way that applies to all.

Truth applies to all.

If what you’ve found does not apply to all, question the truth of what you’ve found.

The certain way that the ocean is to all, is wet.

The certain way that nature is to all species - is deadly.

Excessive love of “Mother Nature”, exceeding that of one’s love for humanity is akin to embracing the Grimm Reaper.

Truth?

How do you know when you’ve gotten a description right? How do you know when you say just the way it is? You know because when you say just the way it really is for you, it’s the same way for everyone. If it’s not true for everyone then it’s not true, no matter how harsh the ramifications may seem. For example like all young men, Frost had miles to go before he slept.

What are you gonna do?

[Sage-ish]

Walker, are you saying you downloaded my book? The murders are the truth. As for what's in the book it was as best I could do as I wrote it. Until you reach the end of it,you will have no idea what my conclusions are. I wrote about what it was like for me as a worked my way through a nightmare. If you want to judge me, go ahead, but keep it to yourself. I've been through hell with this. Yes, I grew from it, but I don't need to be judged. Love is multifaceted.

[Sage-ish]

In difficult situations, compassion gives us the power to find a path that meets the vital interests of all concerned when possible and to minimize the pain when that is not possible. Compassion cuts through beliefs and goes straight to the heart.

—Ken McLeod

Without compassion we have nothing.