You know, I think democracy only works with populations up to a certain point. Fear of chaos seems to lead people to demand authoritarian rule when populations reach a certain level. I do not see a future for democracy at this point. Any remaining democracies will be eroded to pointlessness by Murdoch and co.gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:33 amIndia is backsliding, like Turkey, Poland, Hungry...................but all those nations have an earlier history of "westernism" India via the brits, Turkey via Attaturk, Poles/Hungrians via post iron curtain freedom.
hopefully there idiocy is temporary and their decades longer traditions of liberalism will prevail and they will return to their better natures.
- god i hope so.
America is not nor should be an island.
I value liberal traditions in all lands - and if america falls - i will need to move to one of those other lands that values it.
Hinduism is far superior to Christianity and Islam?
Re: Hinduism is far superior to Christianity and Islam?
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hinduism is far superior to Christianity and Islam?
To be realistic and fair we have to compare the various religions across a range of reasonable criteria [preferably given weightages for each].gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:42 amnot sure of your claims of superiority/inferiority.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:07 amWhy the suspicion when this forum is a place for discussion of relevant topics.
I do a lot of exploration in my continual research. I happened to come across this video which I thought is interesting for a discussion.
It is important to show Christianity and Islam [especially] their place to dilute their false arrogance.
Christians are demanding to study only creationism in schools and reject the theory of evolution. Muslims [a very significant SOME] are making all sorts of demands from non-Muslims in the belief their religion is the greatest and most superior over all other religions, to the extent they have the divine God given right to enslave and kill non-believers.
Hinduism [in general and specific schools] also has weaknesses but on average is far more superior than Christianity and Islam. The comparison is like 7/10 to 4/10.
The consequences of evil acts from a critical SOME of believers inspired directly from the religious texts and doctrines from each religion can be very objectively quantified, e.g.
In terms of overall spiritual well-being the Abrahamic believers are bonded to the immutable texts and illusory God of their religion. They are always in a state of fear [explicitly or subliminally] of the wrath of God on Judgment Day
Re: Hinduism is far superior to Christianity and Islam?
The problem here, as I see it, whatever gets rescinded in terms of democracy among the masses, whether in collusion or not, gets augmented among the elite, governments and their sponsors having always been the most potent predators of power.Greta wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:19 amYou know, I think democracy only works with populations up to a certain point. Fear of chaos seems to lead people to demand authoritarian rule when populations reach a certain level. I do not see a future for democracy at this point. Any remaining democracies will be eroded to pointlessness by Murdoch and co.
It should be acknowledged, because it changes perspective to its real operating logic, that such power services not some constitutionalized abstraction - that being only a format for its justification by its mandarins - but individuals with an organic lust for power employing paradigms which have upheld theism for millenniums. The more power which accrues the less the restraint to protect it, that being human nature, except that imposed on the plebs which goes in the opposite direction.
If any historical or deeply entrenched democracy implodes it can only be done through collusion with its masses. If the great unwashed don't heed the warnings, and there would be many, they deserve whatever follows including gulags & concentration camps.
There may be a lot of fake news abroad but what if much of that fake news is merely advertised as fake to service a more sinister agenda? How many are falling in line with the fake news mantra already. Though some media outlets deserve to whip-lashed and ostracized good journalism remains indispensable as warning announcements of possible future conditions if such warnings are ignored.
Though constitutions may protect passively it's the media which informs the masses of any active infringements by those having power and wanting more. Dismiss the media and power flows toward them that already have more than they should. As seems obvious that situation is more acute now in some countries than in others.
Re: Hinduism is far superior to Christianity and Islam?
I largely agree, Dub. The masses are not only complicit in eroding the democracy, many are demanding it. Many people still harbour the dream of the benevolent dictator who's in charge because He is a step ahead and will lead the nation to glory.
Yet it always plays out the same, where the lack of checks and balances results in the authoritarian reaching ever further for more power, control and freedom from the threats of dissent. For mine, the midterms and the 2020 general elections will determine whether the US has too many people to hold a democracy together or not.
It's quite fascinating to watch in a David Attenborough-ish way, but simultaneously disturbing in a car crash-ish way.
Yet it always plays out the same, where the lack of checks and balances results in the authoritarian reaching ever further for more power, control and freedom from the threats of dissent. For mine, the midterms and the 2020 general elections will determine whether the US has too many people to hold a democracy together or not.
It's quite fascinating to watch in a David Attenborough-ish way, but simultaneously disturbing in a car crash-ish way.
Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
Interesting topic. I think I should also be talking about Buddhism later as this is also a related subject. For it must be said that Siddharta Gawtama was a second class Hindu citizen in ancient India before he founded the religion known nowadays as Buddhism. Right? I have very good books and videos on the subject ready to be shared with the greatest numbers. What a great opportunity to meet you for the first time!
All praises and thanks are due to Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful.
Well, I not only listened to that video but I had watched many other videos from the same author of that video (its not the one who posted the video but some other) and even exchanged with him on the YouTube comments section many months ago, and it turned out that his knowledge of Hinduism was very very limited, and he ended up not being able to converse with me on a philosophical intellectual level. And of course he had no other choice than to run away from the comments section of his own channel!
Well, he said he would get back to me when he has the time, and I am still waiting after about five months!Well that was that! Now, I hope we can get the opportunity to get through this discussion without you running away like the author of this video!
So before I proceed to analyze the contents of this video, if Allah, the Most Compassionate wills, I have to mention that I disagree with the opening statement of the opening post. Having studied and had first hand experience of the major world religions, I can without the shadow of a doubt say that Islam is by very far the best of all religions. And as such Islam is far superior than all other world religion. That said let us analyze the video from an objective point of view.
The main problem with the author and speaker of the video is that he is only in rhetorics and never does he substantiate any of his claims! So to refute him was by the will of Allah, very easy for me, for then all I had to do is to confront him with the evidence from the scriptures themselves. From there there was just no way he could defend his position any more when the evidence was presented to him! And another problem with the speaker is that he makes a lot of logical blunders. Had he not mentioned Islam, I would not have bothered listening to his amateur and philosophically flawed discourse after the first twenty seconds of viewing, so much it was logically flawed that much in the video!
Let me give some background on the author of this video. What I found by exchanging with him is that he did not know much about Hinduism, so I had to teach him some basic facts about that religion. He is merely a proponent of one school of thought of Hinduism, which he probably had learnt summarily and it is known as the Advaita school of thought. He seemed to me to be some kind of fake guru recruiting disciples for his ideology. But there are many problems with this school of thought as many of its concepts and precepts are directly contradicting a significant portion of the most sacred scriptures of the Hindus namely the Vedas and also the Vedanta and the Upnishad. Now within Hinduism itself there are other schools of thought which directly confront the Advaita school of thought. The most prominent opposition being the Dvaita school of thought. Without going into much details here for this is a very complicated and technical subject and if one does not have some very basics in Sanskrit it is even more complicated, but any way it is important to know that much just to have some context.
So let us dive into the analysis without further ado.
1. First consideration.
The speaker says: “To begin with we should understand that truth for the Abrahamic religions are based on texts revealed by one founder, at one point in history, in one geographical location, and in one language. […] Truth for Hinduism however, is not bound by any culture, time or personality. It is about realizing our true relationship with God that has always been. […] It is the universal truth open to all that has, is and always will be.”
There are many logical and factual errors with the quoted above statements. For a start, mentioned have already been made about the appalling caste system in India. For example, the lowest caste (the shudra) of the Hindu religion and culture were not allowed to even hear the recitation of the Vedas. If by “mistake” they had overheard the recitation of the Vedas, molten lead were to be poured into their ears and if they had recited it back, their tongues were to be cut off. This is in the Hindu religious law written in the religious text known as the Manu Smriti. This clearly shows that the so called “universal truth open to all” of Hinduism were not so open after all, and if they were open they were certainly not for all! And even if this alone refutes all the later claims of the speaker, there are many more problems as well. Let me address these now.
The speaker seems to imply that there are no revealed scriptures in Hinduism! This is clearly a very ignorant and utterly false statement that he is implying. As a matter of fact, not only are revealed scriptures of uttermost importance to the Hindu religion but Hinduism has a very strict hierarchical system of scriptures. The highest and most authoritative scriptures of Hinduism are the Vedas. This means that anything which contradicts/opposes the Vedas are to be either rejected or reinterpreted to conform with the message of the Vedas. Next in order of authority are the Vedanta. Vedanta literally means in Sanskrit: the end of the Vedas. In a nutshell as it name suggests, Vedanta are essentially and intricately linked to the Vedas and can be either elaboration or commentaries on the Vedas. Next there are the Upnishads, then there are the Puranas and others and lastly at the very bottom of the hierarchy there is the Bhagavat Gita.
Now, since the Vedas are the most authoritative scriptures of Hinduism, I will consider the Vedas extensively in this and other posts if Allah wills. I propose to give an overview of the Vedas to provide some context for the contributors on this thread who may not be knowing of this. There are four Vedas, namely, the Rig Veda, the Yajur Veda, the Sama Vedas and the Atharva Veda. Now, among the Vedas, the Rig Veda has a special status in being not only the oldest of the Hindu scriptures but also the oldest religious scripture in the WORLD! It is dated by scholars to be about 3500 years old. Interesting it is to consider that the Vedas was primarily an oral tradition before it was written in book form. This means that it was recited by master to disciples and then memorized and recited back by the disciples. And this is how it was transmitted down. And this fact completely destroys everything the speaker says throughout the video. As an aside, when I had mentioned that to him, shortly after that the exchange then was to end as he was not aware of this, given the statements that he was making. His whole rhetorical edifice crumbles with these simple facts. But let us scratch some more of the surface!
2. Second consideration.
The speaker says: “[…] any religion claiming to be the only way to Truth cannot stand up to reason. On this issue, we will be showing that the Abrahamic faiths have ideas which have been forced on reality, while Hinduism has a philosophy which is utterly in tune with the way life actually is.”
So now, let us analyze what the Hindu scriptures themselves say in order to be able to concretely assess “the way life actually is” (in the own words of the speaker himself). So a pertinent question that one must ask is as follows: what are these eternal truths in Hinduism that describes the “way life actually is”?
I propose to quote the most authoritative Hindu scriptures themselves so that we get an idea of these eternal truths according to Hinduism.
- There is nothing like God. [Yajur Veda 10-71-4]
Oh God! There is no one like you. Neither anyone (like you) ever existed on earth or will exist in the future. [Rig Veda 7-32-23]
Those who worship natural things (such as air, water, fire etc...) enter into darkness. They sink further deep into darkness those who worship sambhuti (created things such as idols, statues, chairs etc...) [Yajur Veda 40:9]
The Upnishad says: "Ekam evadvitiyum", meaning : He is one only without a second.
The Upnishad again says "Na tasya pratima asti" meaning: There is no likeness of Him.
God alone is the master of the whole universe. Every creature bows down before Him. Only He is eligible to be worshiped. [Atharva Veda 2-2-1]
Great God is emperor of heaven and earth. [Rig Veda 1-100-1]
All praises are for God, Who is the creator of this universe. [Rig Veda 3-34-1]
How can we worship anyone else, except God, who is praised by mountains covered with snow, rivers along with the ocean and whose rule is in all directions? [Rig Veda 10-121-4]
3. Third consideration.
On the third point, after a lot of irrelevant material to cloud the judgment of the intellectually weak with emotions, the speaker finally says his main point: “The pressure and urgency for Hinduism to evidence its Truth claims, is simply not there, since there is no proposition of eternal damnation.”
Here the speaker is implying that there is no eternal damnation in Hinduism. And that is a factually false statement! For if we refer to the most sacred and authoritative scriptures of the Hindus, we can read the following:
- Those human beings, who in their life harm their soul (by committing sin); after death they go to the dark world of demons. [Yajur Veda 8-1-1-]
O' friends, if you don't worship anyone except one God, you will be saved from violence. [Rig Veda 8-1-1]
Those who easily earn wealth and don’t feed saints and friends, and eat their earning alone, then eating (their own earned money) is sinful and their ultimate fate is destruction. [Rig Vedas 10:117:6]
It is a common belief among Hindus that souls are reincarnated ad infinitum, but this is not what the Vedas says. In fact the Vedas refute this claim!
- He (God) who punishes by lightning slashes, terminates evil power, bring to senses thousands of deadly violent (human beings). Merciful to hundreds (human beings). Owner of great roof (sky). He is not going to give five rebirth to the deceased. O followers (of Sanatan Dharm) get obedient to the owner of lighting (God) [Rig Veda 1-100-12]
- By denying the hereafter, and rejecting knowledge and wisdom (of scriptures) as nonsense, they are holding our defined boundary (that means they are crossing the boundary of obedience to God) [Rig Veda 3-4-1]
Note: these verses were translated by Pandit Durga Shankar Satyarthi, publish in Kanti, July 1969.
A “pandit” means a Hindu scholar.
In a nutshell, the Vedas view on life after death is the same as the Abrahamic religion, i.e. the righteous go to eternal life in heaven and the wicked have eternal life in hell. In other Hindu texts such as the Shrimad Bhagwat Purana, we have the following description of life in hell.
- Their body will burn with burning planks. And they will be fed with their own flesh, which either they themselves will cut off, or someone else will do it for them. [Shrimad Bhagwat Puran 3-30-25]
In their conscious condition, their intestines will be pulled out by dogs and vultures of the world of dead. They will be tortured by snakes and scorpions that bite or sting. [Shrimad Bhagwat Puran 3-30-26]
Their body will be cut into pieces. They will be fed to the elephant. They will be dropped from mountain cliffs or will be confined in water or a ditch. All punishments and other punishments in hell name Andh Tamis and Rawraw will be given to all men and women who committed sin in this world. [Shrimad Bhagwat Purana 3-30-27/28]
And also from the Rig Veda:
- The extreme deep place has been made for the sinful persons. [Rig Veda 4-5-5]
4. Fourth consideration.
Another thing that is important to observe about that video is that the speaker’s modus operandi is to confront the religion of Abraham(peace be upon him) with the Hindu religion. But little did he know that Prophet Abraham is mentioned in the Vedas! Many Hindu scholars are of the view that Prophet Abraham(pbuh) is called by the name of Brahma in the Vedas. Brahma in the Vedas is reported to have had two wives named Saraswati and Gayatri. And also it is reported that Brahma had two sons namely Atharva and Angira. And it is also reported in the Vedas that Brahma had attempted to sacrifice his eldest son Atharva on inspiration from God, but ultimately he ended up offering an animal sacrifice instead. Now, from the point of view of the Abrahamic religion we know that Sarah and Hajar (may allah be pleased with them) were the wives of Prophet Abraham. Here it is interesting to note the similarities in these names as well. And we also know that Prophet Abraham had two sons (one from each of these two wives) namely Ishmael and Isaac (peace be upon them). And we also know of the sacrifice of Prophet Abraham who had attempted to sacrifice his eldest son Prophet Ishmael (pbut) but at the last moment God, the Almighty intervened and an animal sacrifice was offered instead.
To this day, the Hindus celebrate the sacrifice of Brahma by offering an animal sacrifice and this celebration is known to them as Purush Medha. And the Muslims celebrate the sacrifice of Abraham(pbuh) by offering an animal sacrifice on the day of Eid ul Adha, which is today on the Islamic calendar (but it depends on which part of the globe you are at).
There are many other similarities as well concerning this subject. Let me address this later, if Allah wills. For this requires an in depth consideration and I intend this post to just give a general overview of the subject. Besides it is Eid ul Adha today, so it is a great day of blessings and celebration for me.
Being here philosophizing is the opening of festivities for me! Conclusion.
Indeed, there is eternal damnation in Hinduism for those who do not believe in God, the Almighty. But this is ignored by both the masses and many public popular preachers, and certainly a foreigner will not find this information in the advertised books on Hinduism! And we have already seen that the Vedas preach strict monotheism and strictly forbids polytheism, idol worship and animal worship. In the religion of the Vedas, God cannot be represented by an image or picture or an idol. This is strictly forbidden. Yet polytheism and idol worship is rampant in India nowadays. It is as if the Hindus are believing and doing the exact opposite of what is written in their own scriptures.
This is a very interesting subject. There are many things to be addressed in this topic. May be later if Allah wills. But I can mention certain interesting facts for now. There are many Hindu scholars who have converted and are converting to Islam at present. This is due to the fact that they have found many verses in their scriptures which prophecize the coming of the last Prophet to mankind, namely Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Indeed, Prophet Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Bhavishya Purana. Not only that, but the name of Prophet Jesus Christ is mentioned in that scripture as well and also Prophet Abraham and Prophet Noah (peace be upon them) among others. The latter is known as Manu in Sanskrit. In Sanskrit, the “Bhavishya Purana” can be translated as: the story of creation. And all this has caused tens of thousands of Hindus to embrace Islam in recent years.
Mention can also be made of the interesting story of a well known Hindu scholar in India by the name of Acharya Sanjay Dwivedi (now Pandit Ahmed) who is from a wealthy ruling class family in India, and who after embracing Islam was rejected and beaten nearly to death (front teeth completely broken, cranial fracture etc… many months in hospital to recover) by his own family! One can hear his story from his own mouth at the following video. This video also contains valuable information on the exegesis of the Vedas as Sanjay Dwivedi is also a scholar in the Vedas and the Hindu religious scriptures in general. Good watch.
Lecture by Hindu Scholar Sanjay Dwivedi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDUpVwY8Q-E
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Dalek Prime
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Re: Hinduism is far superior to Christianity and Islam?
Oh, by far.... :/
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
Wishing you Happy Eid ul Adha ...Averroes wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:34 amInteresting topic. I think I should also be talking about Buddhism later as this is also a related subject. For it must be said that Siddharta Gawtama was a second class Hindu citizen in ancient India before he founded the religion known nowadays as Buddhism. Right? I have very good books and videos on the subject ready to be shared with the greatest numbers. What a great opportunity to meet you for the first time!
All praises and thanks are due to Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful.
Well, I not only listened to that video but I had watched many other videos from the same author of that video (its not the one who posted the video but some other) and even exchanged with him on the YouTube comments section many months ago, and it turned out that his knowledge of Hinduism was very very limited, and he ended up not being able to converse with me on a philosophical intellectual level. And of course he had no other choice than to run away from the comments section of his own channel!
Well that was that! Now, I hope we can get the opportunity to get through this discussion without you running away like the author of this video!
Btw, I am not into Hinduism but I understand Hinduism in general with emphasis on advaita vedanta.
I have read your full post [4 main points] and I believe you are too overconfident of yourself when you actually have a shallow and narrow view of the overall philosophy of religion.
When Dharma Speak claimed,
Hinduism is far superior to Christianity and Islam,
he meant the following in general.
In term of spiritual coverage I would present Hinduism and Islam as follows;
[note out of 10/10 highest]
Hinduism: 1........................................>9.0
Islam: ----- -------4............>5
Analogically, Hinduism [of many schools and sects] provide coverage [theory and practices] from kindergarten [1/10] to college, Masters to PhD levels [9/10].
Islam and the Abrahamic religions with its monotheism avoid the kindergarten stages of spirituality and leap to the grade schools [ages 6 to 16/17] pre-college levels at level 4 and 5/10 with rigid dualism like dvaita vedanta.
Because the Abrahamic religions avoid the kindergarten level spirituality and come in at level 4, it is obvious the introductory level 4 [monotheism] of the Abrahamic religions would be better than the level 1 and level 2 [polytheism] of Hinduism.
But this is a limited and bad comparison.
Overall Hinduism has a max spirituality access to level 9/10 but the maximum of the Abrahamic religion is only at level 5.
Therefore overall [I believe this is Dharma Speak's claim] Hinduism is more superior than Christianity and Islam.
The additional point is a Hindu believer can easily move from one level to the next and will not fear threatened by the God to change to a different school of spirituality.
The maturity of Hinduism is it is very realistic in understanding human beings comprised of different spiritual inclinations at a certain point in time and circumstances, thus it provide a wide range of spirituality from kindergarten to PhD levels to suit different people's proclivity.
The four points you raised are not effective counters against the thesis, Hinduism [overall] is superior over Islam.
You are wrong to assume the Vedas are the ultimate absolute authority.
Perhaps those Hindus at level 1-3 may think so, but those at the higher levels 5-9 would not give a damn regarding the absolute authority of the Vedas.
At level 1-3 of Hinduism one will come across all sorts of dogmatic doctrines and some are very devotional, need blind faith, polytheistic, idolistic, stupid, irrational, violent, etc. but this is in tune with the people who have such temperament. But there are opportunities for these low-level believers to progress towards the higher levels.
Islam and the Abrahamic religions are very blind.
They [one size fit all] failed to recognize humanity comprised of people with different levels of spiritual inclination where most people are at the kindergarten levels [1-2].
Thus when the Abrahamic religions forced monotheism [level 3] on the majority whose inclinations are only level 1-2, there is a big mismatch resulting in spiritual zombies.
Re: Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate your well wishes. And this is the first time a non-Muslim wishes me a happy Muslim celebration on a discussion forum.
Let me tell you a bit about it as this is also relevant to this topic besides. It is indeed a very special day for us the Muslims. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran that Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) is our (i.e. the Muslims) father.- And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper. [Quran, interpretation of meaning 22:78]
The celebration of today is also very important for me not only from a religious perspective but also from a philosophical perspective, because this day gets me to think a lot about the life story of our father Prophet Abraham(pbuh) who throughout his life completely surrendered himself to his Creator, the Most Merciful. And there are many particular things that I get to think about on this special day about Prophet Abraham(pbuh). For example, Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was not only a Prophet and Messenger of God, the Almighty but he was also a close friend of God the Almighty.
Allah, the Most Compassionate says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:
- And who is better in religion than he who submits his face to Allah and he is a good-doer and follows the religion of Abraham-the upright? And Allah took Abraham as a friend. [Holy Quran 4:125]
What a great honor to be the friend of the Almighty, the Absolute Sovereign Himself.
Another interesting fact about this great messenger of God that might interest the majority of the world population is a prayer that Abraham addressed to Allah, the Almighty which is communicated to us by Allah, the Almighty Himself in the Holy Quran. Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:
- [Abraham said] "My Lord, grant me authority and join me with the righteous. And grant me a reputation of honor among later generations. And place me among the inheritors of the Garden of Pleasure. [Holy Quran 26:83-85]
And after he had fullfilled the conditions of the sacrifice, Allah, the Most Generous granted him his request. Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:
- And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with words (I.e commandments) and he fulfilled them, He (Allah) said, “Indeed I will make you a leader for mankind.” He (Abraham) said, “And of my offspring?” He (Allah) said, “My Covenant does not include the wrongdoers.” [Holy Quran 2:124]
- Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah, inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah. [Quran, 16:120]
Now let us pause here and take a moment to reflect on these great verses of the Book of Allah, the All-Knowing. Today, what are the major world religion? We have Christianity, Islam, Hinduism (Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism) and there is a small number people who practice Judaism. These are the world major religions which together we can safely say encompass about 90% of the world population. Now among all these different religions it is common knowledge that there is a lot of conflicts and disagreements between their respective adherents. However, all these religions without exception hold Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) in high honor. The Christians and the Jews both talk good about Abraham (pbuh), and they love him and hold him in very high honor. Same for the Hindus, who call Prophet Abraham(pbuh) by the name of Brahma and they also commemorate his sacrifice each year. And no doubt whatsoever that us the Muslims, the children of Prophet Abraham(pbuh) love him and hold him in very high honor. When I think about this and the condition in which the world is at actually, this is just a miracle. Prophet Abraham(pbuh) is the only religious figure in all the history of mankind who has such a unanimous acceptance among all the world religions.
No one talks bad about Prophet Abraham (pbuh) except the foolish and the ignorant people. And Allah, the All-Wise says in the Holy Quran:
- And who will turn away from the religion of Abraham except the one who fools himself? And indeed We chose him (i.e. Abraham) in this world, and in the Hereafter he surely will be among the righteous. [Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning 2:130]
Of course this day also gets me to ponder a lot on the sacrifice of Prophet Abraham and his son Prophet Ishmael (peace be upon them). This story is beautifully narrated by Allah, the Almighty Himself in the Holy Quran, as follows, interpretation of meaning:
- And [then] he [Abraham] said, "Indeed, I will go to [where I am ordered by] my Lord; He will guide me.
My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous."
So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he [Abraham] said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He [Ishmael] said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
We called to him, "O Abraham,
You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, this was the clear trial.
And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations:
"Peace upon Abraham."
Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
And We blessed him and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself. [Holy Quran, 37:99-113]
- Say, " Allah has told the truth. So follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of the polytheists." [Holy Quran, 3:95]
Proof Islam is the best religion.
Hi gaffo, how are you? I hope you are fine. I had promised you on another thread like a month or so ago that I will address the subject of Hinduism in due time if God wills. And I went away from the forum for sometime on that. Sorry for the delay, I was really busy. And I observe that you have contributed to this thread. So if you can take my exposition on Hinduism from here, I can consider that I have fulfilled my promise. Of course, we can continue the discussion on Hinduism here if you want to carry that forward.
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
I am familiar with Abraham of the Abrahamic religions.Averroes wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:03 pm The celebration of today is also very important for me not only from a religious perspective but also from a philosophical perspective, because this day gets me to think a lot about the life story of our father Prophet Abraham(pbuh) who throughout his life completely surrendered himself to his Creator, the Most Merciful. And there are many particular things that I get to think about on this special day about Prophet Abraham(pbuh). For example, Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was not only a Prophet and Messenger of God, the Almighty but he was also a close friend of God the Almighty.
Allah, the Most Compassionate says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:
- And who is better in religion than he who submits his face to Allah and he is a good-doer and follows the religion of Abraham-the upright? And Allah took Abraham as a friend. [Holy Quran 4:125]
What a great honor to be the friend of the Almighty, the Absolute Sovereign Himself.
I am more interested in the psychological processes that was going in Abraham's mind during his willingness to sacrifice his son and how this psychological process is still pulsing in the mind of Muslims, Christians and Jews.
Note this;
Abraham as mentioned by God is a model and exemplar for all Muslims to follow.Fear and Trembling (original Danish title: Frygt og Bæven) is a philosophical work by Søren Kierkegaard [a Christian], published in 1843 under the pseudonym Johannes de silentio (John of the Silence). The title is a reference to a line from Philippians 2:12, "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." — itself a probable reference to Psalms 55:5,[1] "Fear and trembling came upon me..." (the Greek is identical).
Kierkegaard wanted to understand the anxiety[2] that must have been present in Abraham when "God tested [him] and said to him, take Isaac, your only son, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering on the mountain that I shall show you."[3]
Abraham had a choice to complete the task or to refuse to comply to God's orders.
He resigned himself to the three-and-a-half-day journey and to the loss of his son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling
Thus there are SOME [a critical number] zealous Muslims who are ever ready to sacrifice [as a divine duty] their sons and daughters as suicide bombers to kill non-believers.
This is one negative point that would not make Islam as superior to Hinduism [on average].Indonesia attacks:
More parents will sacrifice their own kids in suicide bombings, analysts warn.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-15/p ... nd/9764530
Btw, which madhhab [school] or sect of Islam do you belong or is inclined to?
Re: Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
An interesting fact about Soren Kierkegaard is that he was suffering from severe chronic depression. He said about himself in one of his writings: “In addition to my other numerous acquaintances, I have one more intimate confidant. ... My depression is the most faithful mistress I have known—no wonder, then, that I return the love.”Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:17 am Note this;
Fear and Trembling (original Danish title: Frygt og Bæven) is a philosophical work by Søren Kierkegaard [a Christian], published in 1843 under the pseudonym Johannes de silentio (John of the Silence). The title is a reference to a line from Philippians 2:12, "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." — itself a probable reference to Psalms 55:5,[1] "Fear and trembling came upon me..." (the Greek is identical).
Kierkegaard wanted to understand the anxiety[2] that must have been present in Abraham when "God tested [him] and said to him, take Isaac, your only son, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering on the mountain that I shall show you."[3]
Abraham had a choice to complete the task or to refuse to comply to God's orders.
He resigned himself to the three-and-a-half-day journey and to the loss of his son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling
Søren Kierkegaard “Diapsalmata”, Either/Or (1843) Vol. 1, of 1987 Hong translation.
Now, no human being nowadays may know for sure the cause of his chronic depression, but if he was like Nietzsche- who by the way greatly admired him and helped revived Kierkegaard who was falling into oblivion- then it is known that Nietzsche got so depressed in doing biblical studies to become a Christian minister that he eventually rejected Christianity to become an atheist. However, even if Nietzsche ended up becoming the most virulent critic of Judaism and Christianity (even me, I dare not even quote his criticisms of Judaism and Christianity!), but interesting it is to note that Nietzsche admired the Muslims and had very kind words towards the Muslims and Islam. He even gave his peace and friendship to Islam. One Muslim philosopher who was also a lawyer and a poet by the name of Sir Muhammad Iqbal from Pakistan, who was also an erudite in Nietzsche philosophy said of him, “His heart believes but his mind disbelieves.”
Anyway, this interlude is just meant to be a dip into the history of philosophy/philosophers which no doubt should greatly interest a lot of members of the forum or else benefit the neophyte philosophers. But now without further ado, let us get back to philosophy proper.
_____________________________
You have mentioned the scientific field of study “psychology” in the above quote. The dictionary defines psychology as follows:Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:17 am I am familiar with Abraham of the Abrahamic religions.
I am more interested in the psychological processes that was going in Abraham's mind during his willingness to sacrifice his son and how this psychological process is still pulsing in the mind of Muslims, Christians and Jews.
Psychology: the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behaviour in a given context.
And all scientists agree with the dictionary definition of science and that is:
Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
But now there is a problem! How do you intend to do a psychological study/assessment of Prophet Abraham’s (pbuh) state of mind “during his willingness to sacrifice his son” (as you say) when this event occurred at least 3500 years ago? How do you intend to gather the scientific data for your psychological study/investigation? For you can no longer directly observe this historical event and if your assessment is to qualify as psychological you need to have empirical data otherwise it is not scientific! Don’t you agree?
So now, I see only one possibility to salvage your planned psychological study, and that is through consulting historical documents which have recorded the event accurately. But here again there are issues! I know of no secular historical document which has recorded this great historical event! The only documents that I know of which covers this historical event are, in chronological order:
1. The Hindu scriptures particularly what remains of the Vedas
2. The Judeo-Christian scriptures, particularly what remains of the Torah and the Tanakh, and
3. The Glorious Quran.
So from which of these documents mentioned above do you intend to gather your needed historical facts on which to base your psychological study?
But here again there are other issues! For example, if you intend to gather your needed historical facts from the Bible available nowadays, then scientific community will vehemently object with your methodology! Even the Vatican will object with this data gathering methodology! Indeed, even the Vatican has lost all hope of finding scientific and historical truths in their Bible!
We have already addressed this subject thoroughly on this forum, me and member gaffo mainly. You can check my posts on the following thread for an in depth coverage and more scholarly references on the subject: viewtopic.php?p=364376#p364376These questions came up during the Second Vatican Council when some theologians asserted that Scripture indeed contained such errors. Cardinal Koenig of Vienna attempted to prove it using Mark 2:26, where David "went into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the bread of offering that only the priests could lawfully eat, and shared it with his companions." According to 1 Samuel 21:1, Abiathar was not the high priest, but rather his father, Ahimelech. This scriptural example on the surface appears to support his claim that the Bible contains historical errors. Catholic site: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... bible-true
Moreover, case in point, the verse of the Bible that is quoted from your Wikipedia reference and which Soren Kierkegaard quoted, itself contains an error. The verse in question is Genesis 22:1-2 and it reads as follows:
- After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori′ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” [Genesis 22:1-2 RSV]
So now we are only left with the Vedas and the Glorious Quran as potential candidates for your data gathering process. I already quoted translations of the verses from the Glorious Quran where mentioned is made of the sacrifice. There are other verses as well, and I can look for them if you ask. However, for now let me give you the relevant verses from the Vedas as you said you are not much “into Hinduism”.
A Brahmin Hindu scholar by the name of Dr Ved Prakash Uppadhay has written a book in which he translated the relevant verses from the Vedas. I will be quoting from the English translation of that book:
Dr Ved Prakash Uppadhay wrote:
- ---The Male Child Sacrifice- Atharva Veda (10:1:2, mantras 26-33):
In ancient times, Brahma had two sons : Atharva and Angira. Upon receiving divine command, he prepared to sacrifice the eldest son Atharva. In the scriptures, this is known as ‘the Male Child Sacrifice’. This is celebrated up until today, in which an animal is sacrificed instead of a human being. The above verses are recited at the time of slaughtering the animal. These verses contain the following:
26- Atharva put his head and heart together. Religious zeal radiating from his forehead.
27- The head of Atharva, the abode of the Lord. Protected from all sides by soul, mind and spirit.
28.-It stands not a great height, nor its walls equal in measure. But the Lord is Visible all around it. One who knows about the House of the Lord, knows it. Because the Lord is remembered there.
29.- Saturated with Spiritual Bliss is this House of the Lord. One who has experienced this, is endowed with insight, life and children, by Brahma.
30- One who knows the Holy House, his spiritual power and insight intact, never leaves the House; for reasons that the Lord is remembered there.
31- Surrounded by eight circles is this Holy Place of the angels, and nine gates. House of security, it is the precious eternal life, covered with Divine Light.
32- Precious Holy Spirit is there, established. Three pillars and three wooden girders hold it up. But, it is the center-point of the Soul of Brahma.
33- Brahma lives there. Bright with heavenly Glow, soaked in heavenly Blessing, is this place. To man it offers precious Immortality, and that is Security indeed!
According to the Qur’an, the great Sage Ibrahim had two sons: Ismail and Ishaque. He too received Divine command, and was ready to sacrifice his eldest son Ismail. At the point of slaughter, the Lord gave him a lamb from Paradise, which was then sacrificed in place of Ismail. The Muslims do celebrate this event every year, even today.
The Sage Ibrahim built a house of worship. As per the description given in the Vedas, its height is not much, its walls are not equal. It stands on three pillars. It had three wooden girders. Nine gates and eight circular paths around it still exist. In the Qur’an, it is called the House of Allah and the House of Security. Muslims, who have the means to do so, perform pilgrimage to this House of the Lord, situated at Makka. Thus, we find an amazing similarity between the Vedas and the Qur’an.
Muhammad is the descendant of that Ismail, i.e. the Sage Atharva.---
Now one thing that I need to clarify to those who are not well versed in the Hindu scriptures is the following:
Please do not confuse the names Brahman and Brahma in the Hindu Scriptures because these names in the Hindu scriptures refer to completely distinct beings. Brahma was a man who the Hindu scholars such as Dr Uppadhay, for example, among many others have identified with Prophet Abraham (pbuh), and understandably so, given the striking similarities. And Brahman is the name of the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who has no parent or lord and Who cannot be represented by an image, picture or idol, the All-Powerful, and other attributes as well. Brahman is the God of Brahma. I think we can all easily recognize to whom these names are referring!
There is another similarity between Prophet Abraham and Brahma in the Hindu scriptures that I have yet to mention, and this is very interesting, but later, if God wills, so as not to crowd this already crowded post with too much information.
Back to the psychological study literature review now. So now you have the choice between the Vedic verses and the Glorious Quran. There still remains a final issue here that I need to clear out. Even though the above quoted verses of the Vedas are very beautiful, nevertheless, as Hindu scholar Pandit Ahmed has said in the lecture already linked to, even the Vedas has been corrupted through time. It might not be specially concerning the quoted verses above but this should be kept in mind for other verses.
So this leaves us with the only reliable document concerning information on the life of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and the only scripture which has withstood critical analysis, namely the Glorious Quran. Indeed, in the Holy Quran there is no contradiction whatsoever, it is replete with accurate historical and scientific facts which the historians and eminent scientists nowadays themselves have acknowledged. This is a subject I have already addressed much before, but I can wholeheartedly go into it again if need be.
So here you go, I have already done the literature review for your intended psychological study of the state of mind of the great prophet and friend of God, the Almighty namely Prophet Abraham when about to sacrifice his son Prophet Ishmael (peace be upon the prophets). But please do let me know how you intend to gather the scientific data for the planned psychological study. If I can help some more whether with the literature review or the scientific study itself, I humbly remain at your disposal.
______________________________
Now respectfully, you used the term “average,” this term is a statistical term and the way you are using it is violating fundamental statistical principles! It is a great sin in statistics to take an outlier (you say “one negative point”) as an estimator of the population mean which is the average. For you to be able to use the term “average” correctly, there are certain statistical conditions that must be satisfied. In order to calculate an average, you can either consider the whole population or consider a representative sample of that population. Taking an isolated case as an estimator of population mean is not statistically valid.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:17 am This is one negative point that would not make Islam as superior to Hinduism [on average].
To give you an intuition of why your statistical analysis is not valid let me take an example in another setting than Islam. For example, let us take the case of Buddhism now. So, if I were to take Buddhist monks such as the hate preacher Ashin Wiranthu in Burma or the obnoxious Galagodo Gnanasara in Sri Lanka and generalize their case to all Buddhists, do you think this could be considered a valid statistical inference of mean behavior? Now, the expert analysts in international affairs are saying that these two Buddhist monks are principally responsible through their hate preaches for the massacre of tens of thousands of Rohingya Muslims in Burma and the persecution of Muslims in Sri Lanka. On the basis of this information now, were I to relate their immoral actions to Siddhartha Gautama by pointing to the fact that Siddhartha Gautama was of the Kshatriya (soldier) caste (i.e. second caste in the caste system in ancient India), would that then also be accepted as valid? What do you think? If we are to be consistent with your reasoning then the latter would also have to be valid inferences! However, a healthy intellect would be inclined to think that even if Siddhartha Gautama was a second class citizen in ancient India, it does not mean that his modern followers must now adopt a second class barbaric behavior. Don’t you agree? What do you think of Ashin Wiranthu and Galagodo Gnanasara? What do you think of their behavior and the many Buddhists, among them many monks, who have been rapping, butchering and killing tens of thousands of innocent Muslim women and children in Burma and Sri Lanka? Is there behavior representative of the Buddhists in general?
Here is a documentary by the BBC which give you some facts about the actions of those who claim to be strict followers of Siddhartha Gautama in Burma: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irQhr9DOfbg
Please, what are your thoughts on this? Is this what Siddhartha Gautama taught? Did Siddhartha Gautama teach people to kill tens of thousands of innocent and defenseless women and children?
_______________________________
I am a Muslim and that’s it. And being a Muslim means making an effort to follow the Holy Quran to the best of one’s ability and in the Holy Quran, Allah, the All-Wise says to follow His Messenger Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). So following the prescriptions of the Holy Quran also includes following the tradition (sunnah) of the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Dividing Islam into sects is prohibited in Islam. Allah, the All-Knowing says in the Holy Quran, interpretation of meaning:Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:17 am Btw, which madhhab [school] or sect of Islam do you belong or is inclined to?
- Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do. [Quran 6:159]
________________________________
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Veritas Aequitas
- Posts: 15722
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am
Re: Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
Bringing in Kierkegaard's depression [if it is true] is ad hominen.Averroes wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:46 amAn interesting fact about Soren Kierkegaard is that he was suffering from severe chronic depression. He said about himself in one of his writings: “In addition to my other numerous acquaintances, I have one more intimate confidant. ... My depression is the most faithful mistress I have known—no wonder, then, that I return the love.”Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:17 am Note this;
Fear and Trembling (original Danish title: Frygt og Bæven) is a philosophical work by Søren Kierkegaard [a Christian], published in 1843 under the pseudonym Johannes de silentio (John of the Silence). The title is a reference to a line from Philippians 2:12, "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." — itself a probable reference to Psalms 55:5,[1] "Fear and trembling came upon me..." (the Greek is identical).
Kierkegaard wanted to understand the anxiety[2] that must have been present in Abraham when "God tested [him] and said to him, take Isaac, your only son, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering on the mountain that I shall show you."[3]
Abraham had a choice to complete the task or to refuse to comply to God's orders.
He resigned himself to the three-and-a-half-day journey and to the loss of his son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling
Søren Kierkegaard “Diapsalmata”, Either/Or (1843) Vol. 1, of 1987 Hong translation.
Now, no human being nowadays may know for sure the cause of his chronic depression, but if he was like Nietzsche- who by the way greatly admired him and helped revived Kierkegaard who was falling into oblivion- then it is known that Nietzsche got so depressed in doing biblical studies to become a Christian minister that he eventually rejected Christianity to become an atheist. However, even if Nietzsche ended up becoming the most virulent critic of Judaism and Christianity (even me, I dare not even quote his criticisms of Judaism and Christianity!), but interesting it is to note that Nietzsche admired the Muslims and had very kind words towards the Muslims and Islam. He even gave his peace and friendship to Islam. One Muslim philosopher who was also a lawyer and a poet by the name of Sir Muhammad Iqbal from Pakistan, who was also an erudite in Nietzsche philosophy said of him, “His heart believes but his mind disbelieves.”
Anyway, this interlude is just meant to be a dip into the history of philosophy/philosophers which no doubt should greatly interest a lot of members of the forum or else benefit the neophyte philosophers. But now without further ado, let us get back to philosophy proper.
Kierkegaard is touted as the father of existentialism which has its set of principles and philosophy.Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
-wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism
Nietzsche may have said a few positive points for Islams for perhaps as a counter to his hatred of Christianity but there is no way Nietzsche as an atheist and having an abhorrence for religion would have a total positive views of Islam and its negative baggage.Søren Kierkegaard is generally considered to have been the first existentialist philosopher,[2][10][11] though he did not use the term existentialism.[12] He proposed that each individual—not society or religion—is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely, or "authentically"
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Veritas Aequitas
- Posts: 15722
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am
Re: Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
Your definition of 'psychology' is deceptive in bringing in 'context' which is secondary.Averroes wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:46 amYou have mentioned the scientific field of study “psychology” in the above quote. The dictionary defines psychology as follows:Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:17 am I am familiar with Abraham of the Abrahamic religions.
I am more interested in the psychological processes that was going in Abraham's mind during his willingness to sacrifice his son and how this psychological process is still pulsing in the mind of Muslims, Christians and Jews.
Psychology: the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behaviour in a given context.
And all scientists agree with the dictionary definition of science and that is:
Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
But now there is a problem! How do you intend to do a psychological study/assessment of Prophet Abraham’s (pbuh) state of mind “during his willingness to sacrifice his son” (as you say) when this event occurred at least 3500 years ago? How do you intend to gather the scientific data for your psychological study/investigation? For you can no longer directly observe this historical event and if your assessment is to qualify as psychological you need to have empirical data otherwise it is not scientific! Don’t you agree?
So now, I see only one possibility to salvage your planned psychological study, and that is through consulting historical documents which have recorded the event accurately. But here again there are issues! I know of no secular historical document which has recorded this great historical event! The only documents that I know of which covers this historical event are, in chronological order:
1. The Hindu scriptures particularly what remains of the Vedas
2. The Judeo-Christian scriptures, particularly what remains of the Torah and the Tanakh, and
3. The Glorious Quran.
So from which of these documents mentioned above do you intend to gather your needed historical facts on which to base your psychological study?
But here again there are other issues! For example, if you intend to gather your needed historical facts from the Bible available nowadays, then scientific community will vehemently object with your methodology! Even the Vatican will object with this data gathering methodology! Indeed, even the Vatican has lost all hope of finding scientific and historical truths in their Bible!
We have already addressed this subject thoroughly on this forum, me and member gaffo mainly. You can check my posts on the following thread for an in depth coverage and more scholarly references on the subject: viewtopic.php?p=364376#p364376These questions came up during the Second Vatican Council when some theologians asserted that Scripture indeed contained such errors. Cardinal Koenig of Vienna attempted to prove it using Mark 2:26, where David "went into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the bread of offering that only the priests could lawfully eat, and shared it with his companions." According to 1 Samuel 21:1, Abiathar was not the high priest, but rather his father, Ahimelech. This scriptural example on the surface appears to support his claim that the Bible contains historical errors. Catholic site: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... bible-true
Moreover, case in point, the verse of the Bible that is quoted from your Wikipedia reference and which Soren Kierkegaard quoted, itself contains an error. The verse in question is Genesis 22:1-2 and it reads as follows:
Where is the error you might be asking? There are many! But let us consider only the most relevant to the discussion. In that verse Prophet Isaac (pbuh) is qualified as being the only son of Prophet Abraham(pbuh), and this was never the case. Prophet Abraham first became a father with the birth of Prophet Ishmael and only the latter can ever qualify to be the only son of his father Prophet Abraham, and this was before Prophet Isaac was born (peace be upon them all). So the verse which caused Kierkegaard to be depressed itself contains historical errors!
- After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori′ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” [Genesis 22:1-2 RSV]
Note,
What is critical here are the general principles which is generic to any human being.Psychology is the science of behavior and mind, including conscious and unconscious phenomena, as well as feeling and thought. It is an academic discipline of immense scope and diverse interests that, when taken together, seek an understanding of the emergent properties of brains, and all the variety of epiphenomena they manifest.
As a social science it aims to understand individuals and groups by establishing general principles and researching specific cases.
Because the core DNA of the generic human is more or less constant, we can infer the behavior of humans way back to 6 million years ago.
The basic primal drives, e.g. sex, food, breathing, and the emotions are the same now and 6 million years ago.
Can you prove with direct empirical evidence there was a person named 'Abraham' [or similar names] who existed in the said period of time and was commanded by a God [illusory and impossible] to sacrifice his son.
But I am very certain that 'Abraham' would have experienced the same hunger drive, had sexual erections, breathed, and experienced the same basic emotions like humans in 2018.
Those in the past who are willing to sacrifice their sons for God or anyone would most likely to suffer the same perverted psychology as those who are doing such sacrifice in the present.
It the same for basic murders, rape, pedophilla, and other perversions, the basic psychological of these perversions are the same now as in 10,000, 100,000 years ago.
Relying on ancients texts which is vulnerable to corruptions [confirmation bias] cannot be that reliable in comparison to inferring from empirical generic psychological principles that are common within human beings and animals.
Note the verses from the Bible are correct in relation to the context of the psychology arising from "WHY" Abraham was so willing to carry out the disgusted extreme command from God [which is illusory and an impossibility].
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Veritas Aequitas
- Posts: 15722
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am
Re: Proof Islam is the best of all religions.
Note I stated above it is not credible to rely on ancient holy texts which are vulnerable to corruption which the Quran is no exception.Averroes wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:46 am So now we are only left with the Vedas and the Glorious Quran as potential candidates for your data gathering process. I already quoted translations of the verses from the Glorious Quran where mentioned is made of the sacrifice. There are other verses as well, and I can look for them if you ask. However, for now let me give you the relevant verses from the Vedas as you said you are not much “into Hinduism”.
A Brahmin Hindu scholar by the name of Dr Ved Prakash Uppadhay has written a book in which he translated the relevant verses from the Vedas. I will be quoting from the English translation of that book:
Dr Ved Prakash Uppadhay wrote:
Link to book freely available here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/8620683/Kalki-Avtar-Book
- ---The Male Child Sacrifice- Atharva Veda (10:1:2, mantras 26-33):
In ancient times, Brahma had two sons : Atharva and Angira. Upon receiving divine command, he prepared to sacrifice the eldest son Atharva. In the scriptures, this is known as ‘the Male Child Sacrifice’. This is celebrated up until today, in which an animal is sacrificed instead of a human being. The above verses are recited at the time of slaughtering the animal. These verses contain the following:
26- Atharva put his head and heart together. Religious zeal radiating from his forehead.
27- The head of Atharva, the abode of the Lord. Protected from all sides by soul, mind and spirit.
28.-It stands not a great height, nor its walls equal in measure. But the Lord is Visible all around it. One who knows about the House of the Lord, knows it. Because the Lord is remembered there.
29.- Saturated with Spiritual Bliss is this House of the Lord. One who has experienced this, is endowed with insight, life and children, by Brahma.
30- One who knows the Holy House, his spiritual power and insight intact, never leaves the House; for reasons that the Lord is remembered there.
31- Surrounded by eight circles is this Holy Place of the angels, and nine gates. House of security, it is the precious eternal life, covered with Divine Light.
32- Precious Holy Spirit is there, established. Three pillars and three wooden girders hold it up. But, it is the center-point of the Soul of Brahma.
33- Brahma lives there. Bright with heavenly Glow, soaked in heavenly Blessing, is this place. To man it offers precious Immortality, and that is Security indeed!
According to the Qur’an, the great Sage Ibrahim had two sons: Ismail and Ishaque. He too received Divine command, and was ready to sacrifice his eldest son Ismail. At the point of slaughter, the Lord gave him a lamb from Paradise, which was then sacrificed in place of Ismail. The Muslims do celebrate this event every year, even today.
The Sage Ibrahim built a house of worship. As per the description given in the Vedas, its height is not much, its walls are not equal. It stands on three pillars. It had three wooden girders. Nine gates and eight circular paths around it still exist. In the Qur’an, it is called the House of Allah and the House of Security. Muslims, who have the means to do so, perform pilgrimage to this House of the Lord, situated at Makka. Thus, we find an amazing similarity between the Vedas and the Qur’an.
Muhammad is the descendant of that Ismail, i.e. the Sage Atharva.---
Now one thing that I need to clarify to those who are not well versed in the Hindu scriptures is the following:
Please do not confuse the names Brahman and Brahma in the Hindu Scriptures because these names in the Hindu scriptures refer to completely distinct beings. Brahma was a man who the Hindu scholars such as Dr Uppadhay, for example, among many others have identified with Prophet Abraham (pbuh), and understandably so, given the striking similarities. And Brahman is the name of the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who has no parent or lord and Who cannot be represented by an image, picture or idol, the All-Powerful, and other attributes as well. Brahman is the God of Brahma. I think we can all easily recognize to whom these names are referring!
There is another similarity between Prophet Abraham and Brahma in the Hindu scriptures that I have yet to mention, and this is very interesting, but later, if God wills, so as not to crowd this already crowded post with too much information.
Back to the psychological study literature review now. So now you have the choice between the Vedic verses and the Glorious Quran. There still remains a final issue here that I need to clear out. Even though the above quoted verses of the Vedas are very beautiful, nevertheless, as Hindu scholar Pandit Ahmed has said in the lecture already linked to, even the Vedas has been corrupted through time. It might not be specially concerning the quoted verses above but this should be kept in mind for other verses.
So this leaves us with the only reliable document concerning information on the life of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and the only scripture which has withstood critical analysis, namely the Glorious Quran. Indeed, in the Holy Quran there is no contradiction whatsoever, it is replete with accurate historical and scientific facts which the historians and eminent scientists nowadays themselves have acknowledged. This is a subject I have already addressed much before, but I can wholeheartedly go into it again if need be.
So here you go, I have already done the literature review for your intended psychological study of the state of mind of the great prophet and friend of God, the Almighty namely Prophet Abraham when about to sacrifice his son Prophet Ishmael (peace be upon the prophets). But please do let me know how you intend to gather the scientific data for the planned psychological study. If I can help some more whether with the literature review or the scientific study itself, I humbly remain at your disposal.
I understand this issue of corruption of texts is heavily debated.
Whatever claims as scientific truths have been debunked.
In any case, I do not want to waste time on this.
Rather it would be more effective for you to prove there is a real God who exists to deliver those messages and claims to humans.
I have proven a real God is an impossibility.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704