The illusion of Free Will

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philosopher
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by philosopher »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:01 pm
philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:54 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:49 pm
OK, when you come to a fork in the road which do you take?

Some people loose some of their teeth, and of those people some get dentures, some get implants, some don't and try and chew with their remaining teeth and some puree all their food.

Some people become Christians, some Buddhists, some Hindus, and some atheists.

Those are just a few examples of free will at work, the ability to choose between various options.
The path I choose would be the one that the neurons processing information summed in total in favor of.
Incorrect, while your brain commands some of your body as autonomic functions, which is determined. You are your brain, and the totality of you, can choose between various options. In other words, "you, your brain, controls you, your brain."

You see the problem with this question is that it's bound by ones ignorance of the brain. In some cases it's you that determines which neurons fire.
The brain is influenced by the rest of the body. For example, the bowel actually do control the brain and vice-versa.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases ... connection
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henry quirk
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Yes?

Post by henry quirk »

See? That''s why I think you're a crazy person.

You would rather be a toaster than a (self-directing) person.
Last edited by henry quirk on Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:10 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:01 pm
philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:54 pm

The path I choose would be the one that the neurons processing information summed in total in favor of.
Incorrect, while your brain commands some of your body as autonomic functions, which is determined. You are your brain, and the totality of you, can choose between various options. In other words, "you, your brain, controls you, your brain."

You see the problem with this question is that it's bound by ones ignorance of the brain. In some cases it's you that determines which neurons fire.
The brain is influenced by the rest of the body. For example, the bowel actually do control the brain and vice-versa.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases ... connection
Sure, sensors throughout your body feedback information of various requirements. But free will is you controlling you. It's not true that it doesn't exist because you are at the mercy of you. That's ridiculous! When you swing the bat to hit the ball, it's you controlling you. You could go and sit on the bench instead, but you'll really anger the coach if you're the best hitter in the line up. Choices, choices! ;-)
Nick_A
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by Nick_A »

“My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.” ― Nikola Tesla
Tesla makes sense to me. We don't create consciousness rather we receive impressions which are interpreted producing mechanical reactions according to universal laws. It does seem that Man has the conscious potential to receive from the conscious core without mechanical reactions and produce conscious actions made capable by free will.
jayjacobus
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by jayjacobus »

philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:52 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:53 pm
On one small section of one your sources the authorss write:

"Humans are convinced that they make conscious choices as they live their lives. But instead it may be that the brain just convinces itself that it made a free choice from the available options after the decision is made."

The brain doesn't make choices. Consciousnrss does. The brain is biomechanical. It doesn't convince.itself. The brain doesn't decide. Consciousness does.

So, writing about free will with regard to the biomechanical brain is missing the point.
Could you please explain the difference between the brain and consciousness?

Is not the consciousness generated by the brain?
it is unknown where consciousness comes from but the brain processes and consciousness interprets and does not process. This makes the brain an unlikely source of consciousness.
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QuantumT
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by QuantumT »

Murder proves the lack of free will

When a person commits a murder, he knows that the risk of him going to prison is minimum 50%. Those are very bad odds.
If you add to that, that a murder conviction in some states/countries is equal to a death sentence, it makes the descision even more stupid.
Add to that, that most people will be haunted by their fear of exposure, makes it even even more stupid.

No one in their right mind (crazy people are rarely punished with prison or death), would take such a calculated risk.
Thus they must be controlled by predetermined instincts.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by Immanuel Can »

philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:08 pm The world's most briliant minds like Richard Dawkins (he's my equivalant of a prophet, had it not been for the fact that prophets are entirely a religious thing) says free will is an illusion. Why don't you agree with him?
Two good reasons. One, he's far outside the limited area in which he has any competence at all to speak. He's a biologist of some modest note. He calls himself a "communicator," not a researcher. More importantly, he's not an ethicist, not a philosopher, and no kind of theologian at all; yet he deigns to speak in those areas as if he were some kind of expert. His extreme limitations become manifest every time he does. Two, he's just wrong. And that's the big one.

Additionally, I note that his "brilliance" has gotten him into some interesting jackpots lately.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... reputation

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 89396.html

I'd like to hear Dawkins explain why he achieved his tremendous intellectual insight at age 13, which is when he says he became an Atheist in the first place. A more plausible account is that it may well have something to do with his dislike of his father -- that was the case for a lot of the famous Atheists, actually. But whatever the case, I'm not the only person (as you can see from the above articles) that regards him as a rager motivated more by his antipathy to God than by reason.
Professor Stephen Hawking also opposed free will:
https://www.quora.com/Is-Stephen-Hawkin ... -free-will

Were these people crazy?
No. But they're strongly incentivized to be angry with the God they deny exists. You can probably figure out why Hawking was angry. In any case, it didn't really qualify him to drift away from physics and make metaphysical prognostications out of his work, did it?

Moreover, expert consensus is that he reached his peak with A Brief History of Time, which put forth an elegant but purely theoretical universe model, which was ultimately criticized as being merely speculative in its mathematics, permanently empirically untestable, and in any case, incomprehensible to the general public -- not that that last fact stopped many Atheists from rejoicing that they regarded it as some kind of proof from a great scientific mind.

It looks like the jury is still out on Hawking, and it's likely to stay out. He's no longer prognosticating: so if he was right...he'll never know. If he was wrong, he knows it now.

My advice is this: be careful when somebody always seems to tell you exactly what you wanted to think in the first place. They may not be adding value to your life.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Free will is simply the ability to choose from the things that you've learned.

As I've said before: The argument of either Free Will or Determinism, is a false dichotomy.

In truth: Free Will, as insignificant as it is, exists within the framework of determinism.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

philosopher wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:01 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:08 pm
philosopher wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:03 pm

Why shouldn't one be decieved without a choice?

Btw. here's an interesting thread:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24841

Apparently, we can chemically alter thoughts.

Now, this is perfect evidence against the anti-reductionist point of view.
I am simply saying that the illusion of free will necessitates the existence of free will.
Please explain.
All illusions, as a deficiency in truth, require an element of choice in the respect one cannot be decieved unless one is allowed to choose. Deception cannot occur unless an option between one truth and a lesser/fuller degree of truth are available with this choice fundamentally being an embodiment of a subjective free will which is in itself not defined except as choice.

I may have to clarify or elaborate further.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm Free will is simply the ability to choose from the things that you've learned.

As I've said before: The argument of either Free Will or Determinism, is a false dichotomy.

In truth: Free Will, as insignificant as it is, exists within the framework of determinism.

Free will as determinism:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24725
philosopher
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by philosopher »

Well, perhaps it appears I was partially wrong about the lack of free will...

I appears as if the particles - atoms and the sub-atomic world- can all be reduced into waves of the fabric of spacetime. Meaning it is all about probability.

Now, probability means that either your theory is wrong. Pure and simple, that there is something missing in the equation.

It could also mean that the universe is fundamentally made of probability waves. That you cannot be sure of anything, fundamentally speaking. You can be sure of a particle's momentum, but then you lose all sense of its position.

If we are made of subatomic particles - and we are - and these particles can "decide" for themselves where to be, we have a certain level of freedom.
Though I am highly doubting that our minds can have any influence what-so-ever of quantum mechanics. I will go so far as to say not only is it unlikely, but it is totally unreal.

But this means our consciousness is made of "substance" that is fundamentally probability waves. How much is freedom and how much is out of our control, I've lost track of.

There is a second theory, Pilot Wave Theory which explains the universe in an entirely deterministic way. Though, this has some sort of wierdness too, as distant events have direct and instaneous effects on us right here, right now through the Universal Wave Function, because it has to account for non-locality in order to qualify for the Bell's theorem. It means that even a deterministic universe some sort of freedom as well, just in a different sense.

All of this of course assuming I understand both Copenhagen Interpretation and Pilot Wave Theory correctly, broadly speaking.

I already knew this stuff long before I made this thread.
I also know that Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawkings is/was, respectively, atheists. And that I don't regard myself as an atheist, even though I do see them as my "allies".

I do not believe in a divine creator who created our universe, even though I am not an atheist. I believe the universe itself has a freedom to shape itself - unconsciously of course, but that through complexity of biology, living beings can become conscious and shape their own lives - within the boundaries of the laws of physics. That the universe itself through the evolution of biology can become conscious - as we humans and other animals are part of the universe.

Though this "insight" is frightening at best, horrifying at worst - because it leaves me without knowledge of anything what-so-ever!
It also means the universe is too huge for me to grasp, which induce fear in me.
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QuantumT
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by QuantumT »

philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:01 pm I appears as if the particles - atoms and the sub-atomic world- can all be reduced into waves of the fabric of spacetime.
Just to be clear: There are no waves, only "wave-ish" behavior. The particles are still there. The "wave-ish" behavior is called "the wave function" :wink:
philosopher
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by philosopher »

QuantumT wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:13 pm
philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:01 pm I appears as if the particles - atoms and the sub-atomic world- can all be reduced into waves of the fabric of spacetime.
Just to be clear: There are no waves, only "wave-ish" behavior. The particles are still there. The "wave-ish" behavior is called "the wave function" :wink:
Well, that depends...

What is a photon?
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QuantumT
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by QuantumT »

philosopher wrote: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:58 pm Well, that depends...

What is a photon?
It is both a particle and an electromagnetic wave. It has a dual nature, and changes to a particle upon measurement, unlike any other particle.

First ever photo showing it: https://phys.org/news/2015-03-particle.html

We can only experience photons and electromagnetic resistance, so the better question is: What is reality?
Nick_A
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Re: The illusion of Free Will

Post by Nick_A »

Why did the dog cross the road? To get to the other side. Was it an action decided by free will or a reaction to a dominant desire?
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