The Scapegoat

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16929
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Dontaskme »

Dalek Prime wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:01 pm
Also, why do solipsists ruin their own world, by creating a world that is not fulfilling to them?
I think you have that backwards.

You need to think backwards...like this > I think you are confusing awakened people for solipsists.

An awakened person has the wisdom to remove all that is not fufilling to them by replacing it with what is.

It's called deconstructing, not constructing. It works both ways.

If garbage goes in ..that's all that will come out.

.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16929
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:54 pm
First things first. The solution begins with an evening of good wine, shrimp and lobster hors d'oeuvres, and an adventurous cute blonde. After absorbing their impressions a man can begin to think rationally and acquire what is necessary to deal with the parsing problem.
I hear you man, but ain't no human man good enough for my woman :wink:

I only like the best things in life. I'm a top kind of thing. Nothing but the best, anything below top ain't going to cut it, this has to be perfect. :D

Are you up to the job :shock: :wink:

.

Ps, I don't drink so you won't be able to make a loose woman out of me... although you really don't need to do that, I'm already loose like a long neck goose. :P

.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:01 pm
Dalek Prime wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:01 pm
Also, why do solipsists ruin their own world, by creating a world that is not fulfilling to them?
I think you have that backwards.

You need to think backwards...like this > I think you are confusing awakened people for solipsists.

An awakened person has the wisdom to remove all that is not fufilling to them by replacing it with what is.

I know this same concept as decreation described by Simone Weil:

It's called deconstructing, not constructing. It works both ways.

If garbage goes in ..that's all that will come out.

.
I know your concept of deconstruction as decreation. Simone Weil described it:
Decreation: to make something created pass into the uncreated. Destruction: to make something created pass into nothingness. A blameworthy substitute for decreation
Where what is decreated has an objective origin, what is destroyed does not.

Dostoyevsky described this process of destruction as it relates to thought as pouring from the empty into the void.
“Oh, gentlemen, perhaps I really regard myself as an intelligent man only because throughout my entire life I've never been able to start or finish anything. Granted, granted I'm a babbler, a harmless, irksome babbler, as we all are. But what's to be done if the sole and express purpose of every intelligent man is babble--that is, a deliberate pouring from empty into void.”


Needless to say I've adopted this expression. I can't tell you how many times I've read something and said to myself "pouring from the empty into the void." It has no objective origin nor an objective destination but for some reason appears impressive
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16929
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Dontaskme »

I like Simone Weil ..seems like a real classy bird. :wink:
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:40 pm Greta
Sure I do. JC was basically saying: Do your civic duty. Do what you have to keep the bastards off your back ... but don't love Caesar or his stuff 'cos yer supposed to love me most, not that dirty Roman bum!
Not a clue!
No, it's exactly what the myth was intended to mean - that's why you could only exhort but not critique. You seem to be too proud to admit anything - neither weakness in yourself or qualities in your political enemies..
Nick_A wrote:
Bullying is more spirit killing than any kind of non-coercive indoctrination. You would know that if you understood people at all. Rather than paying attention to "what is" you are always deeming what you think people should and shouldn't do from your little ivory theistic tower. Coincidentally these strictures always seem to create a scenario where you are the superior human being, above the rest of us, seeing our ill from up on high.
This is typical of people living in denial. They only read or hear what fits their preconceptions. How many times have I written to the effect that secularism is concerned with what people do while the essence of religion is concerned with what we ARE. Yet Greta accuses me of desiring to tell people what to do regardless of how many times I’ve written of the importance of concerning ourselves with what we ARE. In reality Greta is telling us what we should do while completely oblivious of what we are.
As a bullying victim, both at school and work, I shake my head at your arrogance and cluelessness.

Bullying is oppression on a small stage. The key issue is oppression. Large and small stages.

Forcing women who have become pregnant despite taking precautions to go through pregnancy and labour is oppression.

Keeping dying people alive against their will, leaving no option for mercy killing, is oppression.

Meanwhile destroying natural areas without concern for conservation or the values of conservation is simply irresponsible and amoral.

It is you who seeks to oppress, which is why you see no problem with bullying.
Nick_A wrote:
In truth, you are just a pontificator who talks an extraordinary amount of BS (no offence meant). Your naive conceptions are not "above" today's but incorporated into them, the useless parts long superseded - mostly methods that have been tried and failed and then discarded. No doubt the occasional baby went out with the bathwater, but that has always been the way of cultural change over time. The knowledge of indigenous people was lost too when Christians took them over. Now some Christian knowledge is being lost in the modern age of genetic engineering and emerging AI. Most of the knowledge still remains, though, just in rationalised form that requires extrapolation and analysis to tease out the extra detail.
Since we are as we are, everything is as it is. You complain about what is and what has happened. I support the efforts of those concerned with what we are and adopting methods to make us more human. These methods beginning with opening to ideas must be rejected and hated just as you do. Doing otherwise invites questioning the relativity of what we ARE in relation to the potential for human “being” which is intolerable for the secularist closed to the concept of relativity
I complain at the irresponsible governance of your favourite Aryan politician. You complained desperately while Obama was in power. Let's not pretend this is not a political fight. What you want is not more human, only more cruel. Or maybe that's what you mean by "more human"?
Nick_A wrote:
It's not a matter of "daydreaming". If one actually makes the effort to TRULY comprehend the reality of EVERYTHING around them, then they will not be functional in life.
You don’t know what making efforts means.
:lol: You have no idea about my inner life. It's an example of how shamelessly you pull claims out of your arse and try to package them as Nick's Profound Truths. You did not address my point, just rambled on a tangent. Try again.
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

I loathe people who claim to be awakened

Post by Greta »

Gee, I loathe people who claim to be awakened.

I don't know why. It's my problem, something I'll have to work on. They really piss me off, though!

Is it the self righteousness? No, it's the assumption that others are mere automatons while they lead a "real" existence. They think they are aware of so much that others are not, making them "fully human" (implication that others are subhuman).

They remind me of the shitheads you'd run into at work who'd make out that their job was the hardest thing ever and claim that others' jobs were much easier. All they can see is their own story and cannot, or will not, appreciate that others have their own stories that are every bit as vivid and alive as theirs.

It's that kind of self-serving solipsism that makes me want to reach for a bucket. I detest this new postmodern approach to knowledge - dismissing thousands of years of efforts as if it's oppressive to have to accept phenomena once they are tested and verified.

// rant ahhhh
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16929
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: No one ever claimed to be awakened

Post by Dontaskme »

Greta wrote:
Gee, I loathe people who claim to be awakened.
The human body wakes up the moment it is meant to wake up in the morning and no cause can be identified for the body waking up. Similarly, the mind awakens to enlightenment the moment the mind is meant to awaken to enlightenment, which happens when understanding evolves in the mind that everyone and everything is interconnected as one, though they appear dissimilar and diverse.

The individual cannot experience enlightenment for he ceases to experience individuality when the mind awakens to enlightenment.
The clue to the process of awakening is the mind itself. The mind has evolved in man, and this indicates that the mind is present in matter, vegetation and the animal kingdom. If the mind were NOT present in matter, vegetation and the animal kingdom, the mind would not be present in humans either, because life is an evolutionary process and the old, which is present in everything, evolves as the new, and the new is not separate from the old.
.
Ramu
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:55 pm

Re: I loathe people who claim to be awakened

Post by Ramu »

Greta wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:01 pm Gee, I loathe people who claim to be awakened.

I don't know why. It's my problem, something I'll have to work on. They really piss me off, though!

Is it the self righteousness? No, it's the assumption that others are mere automatons while they lead a "real" existence. They think they are aware of so much that others are not, making them "fully human" (implication that others are subhuman).

They remind me of the shitheads you'd run into at work who'd make out that their job was the hardest thing ever and claim that others' jobs were much easier. All they can see is their own story and cannot, or will not, appreciate that others have their own stories that are every bit as vivid and alive as theirs.

It's that kind of self-serving solipsism that makes me want to reach for a bucket. I detest this new postmodern approach to knowledge - dismissing thousands of years of efforts as if it's oppressive to have to accept phenomena once they are tested and verified.

// rant ahhhh
This is hardly a post modern approach to knowledge. People have been having spiritual awakenings/enlightenment for thousands of years!!
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Nick_A »

Greta
No, it's exactly what the myth was intended to mean - that's why you could only exhort but not critique. You seem to be too proud to admit anything - neither weakness in yourself or qualities in your political enemies..
It’s not a myth; it is basic psychology. Money represents physical value. That is Caesar’s domain. But what can a person give to God? Are you supposed to walk around saying I love you Mr. God? That is just silly. The only thing that is ours and the only thing we can give is our attention. That isn’t a myth. Attention is a reality. You just are oblivious of its significance because you are obsessed with Trump.
It is you who seeks to oppress, which is why you see no problem with bullying.
Of course I see a problem with bullying. Our difference is that you don’t know the cause of bullying and how it relates to what we ARE.
You have no idea about my inner life. It's an example of how shamelessly you pull claims out of your arse and try to package them as Nick's Profound Truths. You did not address my point, just rambled on a tangent. Try again.
You don’t know what it means to make efforts. You haven’t written anything to suggest you have. Complaining about Trump just indicates an obsession.
Is it the self righteousness? No, it's the assumption that others are mere automatons while they lead a "real" existence. They think they are aware of so much that others are not, making them "fully human" (implication that others are subhuman).
There is something about Plato’s Cave allegory which is so repulsive to some it is like waving a red flag in front of bull. Those who have felt and admit its significance have been scorned since the beginning of time.
“Force is as pitiless to the man who possesses it, or thinks he does, as it is to its victims; the second it crushes, the first it intoxicates. The truth is, nobody really possesses it.” Simone Weil
Plato’s cave is governed by force. We live in slavery to force we don't understand. Those like Greta don’t realize it so find meaning in fighting imaginary battles while remaining ignorant of the cause and how to deal with it.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:08 pm
Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:54 pm
First things first. The solution begins with an evening of good wine, shrimp and lobster hors d'oeuvres, and an adventurous cute blonde. After absorbing their impressions a man can begin to think rationally and acquire what is necessary to deal with the parsing problem.
I hear you man, but ain't no human man good enough for my woman :wink:

I only like the best things in life. I'm a top kind of thing. Nothing but the best, anything below top ain't going to cut it, this has to be perfect. :D

Are you up to the job :shock: :wink

.

Ps, I don't drink so you won't be able to make a loose woman out of me... although you really don't need to do that, I'm already loose like a long neck goose. :P

.
Well it's good to read you haven't lost your kick.:)
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:44 pm I like Simone Weil ..seems like a real classy bird. :wink:
Actually Simone wasn't a classy bird. Class is an image and Simone had no image. She was a human being who defied classification. What would you call a person who cannot be classified?
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16929
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:40 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:44 pm I like Simone Weil ..seems like a real classy bird. :wink:
Actually Simone wasn't a classy bird. Class is an image and Simone had no image. She was a human being who defied classification. What would you call a person who cannot be classified?
S/he who cannot be classified.
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Nick is Hungry for the Apocalypse

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:32 pm Greta
No, it's exactly what the myth was intended to mean - that's why you could only exhort but not critique. You seem to be too proud to admit anything - neither weakness in yourself or qualities in your political enemies..
It’s not a myth; it is basic psychology. Money represents physical value. That is Caesar’s domain. But what can a person give to God? Are you supposed to walk around saying I love you Mr. God? That is just silly. The only thing that is ours and the only thing we can give is our attention. That isn’t a myth. Attention is a reality. You just are oblivious of its significance because you are obsessed with Trump.
No, I observed in evangelicals like you the wish to have Trump in power so he can more quickly usher in the Apocalypse.

Why not just admit directly that you hunger for the Apocalypse? What you evangelists want is for secular society to be destroyed in the upcoming disasters that corrupt Comrade Trump is expediting.

You hope for Revelations' prophesies to usher in the new, glorious age of God's rule, where all the nasty secular people - the abortionists, mercy killers, feminists, queers and Obamas - are cast into oblivion so only the righteous like you remain.

As per previous discussions, you don't believe the world is overpopulated, nor that ecosystems and other species matter. Thus you can only hope for a soulless world of humans, glass, bricks and steel - "free" of brute nature, presumably living atop one another in endless high rises.

So no, you do not come across as enlightened, just immature and damaged.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Nick_A »

A person unable to be classified is an annoyance to collectivists since they disturb the status quo and Simone did that. But look at the results of being classified. Greta has classified me as an evangelist hungering for the Apocalypse. So the secular progressives argue on the basis of shallow perspectives. Simone’s life and ideas invite to do more. It wasn’t intended. She just lived as a little known seeker of truth. Yet something truly human touched the lives of influential people and gradually her essays and private letters were published. Now she is known loved and hated around the world. We may not understand her but many feel compelled to contemplate the depth what we strive to understand. The secular progressives have their labels and scapegoats and the universalists feel the value of the essence of religion which transcends the attraction to pettiness. Consider how the author in this article describes the attraction to Simone Weil. As offensive as being beyond secular classification is to some, it is appreciated by others. I am happy to be one of the others. There is something more valuable than attacking and creating scapegoats. IMO it is opening to and experiencing the reality and significance of the human condition. It is far beyond the limitations of the secular progressive agenda

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 8ecb78c45a

TO GABRIELLA Fiori, Simone Weil was "a moral genius in the orbit of ethics, a genius of immense revolutionary range." To David McLellan, Weil was a "practitioner of a lucid and active pessimism." She was "peculiar" and "the patron saint of all outsiders."
Then there is Weil on herself: a woman afflicted by "the contagion of my inadequacy and wretchedness. I never read the story of the barren fig tree without trembling. I think that is a portrait of me."
So which is Simone Weil? No answers are guaranteed, not even to readers who go through these newest biographies, both as thick as leafy trees with the ideas and times of a woman who is all but beyond classification. I've read, I think, most of what's in English by Simone Weil, but exactly when it looks as if she is definable she slips away. A pacifist, Weil enlisted in the anarchist militia in the Spanish Civil War. Claiming to have a "natural laziness," she thrived on manual labor. She was fervent, believed in God and stated "I love the Catholic liturgy hymns, architecture, rites and ceremonies," but she never joined the Catholic Church. She wrote movingly about love and lived uncompanioned.
At her death in 1943 in a sanitorium in Kent, England, Weil was a 34-year-old French Jew who had seen few of her essays published and fewer still of her spiritual or physical sufferings eased. By the late 1940s, her articles and letters were collected in Waiting for God and Gravity and Grace. Posthumous publication continues, from The Need For Roots (1952) and Selected Essays (1962) to The Simone Weil Reader (1977) and Simone Weil: An Anthology (1986).
As all this emerged -- a literary trickling while she lived and a flow that became a torrent after her death -- Weil attracted a following that included Albert Camus, Hannah Arendt, T.S. Eliot and Thomas Merton. Camus, who edited Weil's Oppression and Liberation, wrote of it that "Western social and political thought has not produced anything more penetrating and more prophetic since Marx." In the English introduction to The Need For Roots, Eliot said, "This is one of those books which ought to be studied by the young before their leisure has been lost and their capacity for thought destroyed in the life of the hustings and the legislative assembly; books the effect of which, we can only hope, will become apparent in the attitude of mind of another generation."…………………………………
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: The Scapegoat

Post by Greta »

You demonstrate rather than deny your complete lack of interest in slowing of destruction of natural systems.

If we are to talk of shallowness, your lack of interest in, or understanding of, the interconnectedness of natural systems summarises your stance.
Post Reply