Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

[-1-]

His God was the Jewish God.

Only in a very narrow sense. Jesus' God may have originated in the Jewish tradition, but He made clear that his Father is the God of all men.

Recall the ship of Theseus paradox.

The Jewish god is also god of all humans, according to Judaism. Don't tell me please that the Jewish god is not described to be assumed as almighty and all powerful etc. He does have the Jews as his chosen people, according to mythology, but he does not exclude himself anywhere in the scriptures from godding over all mandkind.

[Reflex]

His God was the Jewish God.

Only in a very narrow sense. Jesus' God may have originated in the Jewish tradition, but He made clear that his Father is the God of all men.

Recall the ship of Theseus paradox.

The Jewish god is also god of all humans, according to Judaism. Don't tell me please that the Jewish god is not described to be assumed as almighty and all powerful etc. He does have the Jews as his chosen people, according to mythology, but he does not exclude himself anywhere in the scriptures from godding over all mandkind.

I thought that’s what I said.

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:

My objection as I have stated many times is the animosity directed against students who feel the seed of the soul but are trapped in institutions of child abuse called secular schools. Their spirit killing attitudes lead to metaphysical repression in the young which easily leads to a premature spiritual death. But it is the way of the world and only a few can survive it.

I agree and I hope I'll always support education in the fuller sense of education of the soul. I was talking to my son yesterday about how a student in tertiary education of the Humanities probably has scant chance of getting rich.
In my experience good school teachers are those who struggle to educate against political pressures to get children to pass exams.

Reflex, you too agreed with Nick. You managed to survive Sunday school, and actually, I think most kids do so. Sunday school teachers aren't professionals usually, and we cannot expect them to do other than indoctrinate.

[Reflex]

Survive, yes; but damn few move past that IMO.

[Belinda]

His God was the Jewish God.

Only in a very narrow sense. Jesus' God may have originated in the Jewish tradition, but He made clear that his Father is the God of all men.

Recall the ship of Theseus paradox.

The Jewish god is also god of all humans, according to Judaism. Don't tell me please that the Jewish god is not described to be assumed as almighty and all powerful etc. He does have the Jews as his chosen people, according to mythology, but he does not exclude himself anywhere in the scriptures from godding over all mandkind.

It's unlikely that the historical Jesus was concerned with all past present and future men. On the other hand the Christ of faith is concerned with all past present and future men.

The 'render unto Caesar' story concerns both the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith . I referred to the historical Jesus as originator of the story. The Christ of faith is not the originator of the story but is how we interpret the story.

As for the Ship of Theseus problem, it's not a problem if you believe that your soul and your God are works in progress.

Athenians who tried to conserve the original ship did in fact preserve the spirit of the Ship, but the spirit was not quantifiable as it had no physical existence. The spirit of the Ship of Theseus was what the conservators aimed for.

[Nick_A]

Nick wrote:

My objection as I have stated many times is the animosity directed against students who feel the seed of the soul but are trapped in institutions of child abuse called secular schools. Their spirit killing attitudes lead to metaphysical repression in the young which easily leads to a premature spiritual death. But it is the way of the world and only a few can survive it.

I agree and I hope I'll always support education in the fuller sense of education of the soul. I was talking to my son yesterday about how a student in tertiary education of the Humanities probably has scant chance of getting rich.
In my experience good school teachers are those who struggle to educate against political pressures to get children to pass exams.



Reflex, you too agreed with Nick. You managed to survive Sunday school, and actually, I think most kids do so. Sunday school teachers aren't professionals usually, and we cannot expect them to do other than indoctrinate.

If a person knows what is required to educate the soul, then they know why the concept of God is necessary. Secular education by definition cannot know what it means to educate the soul since its primary function is indoctrination into the established secular agenda. Education concerning the needs of the soul just interfere with the quality of indoctrination necessary to retain the secular agenda

[Reflex]

Only in a very narrow sense. Jesus' God may have originated in the Jewish tradition, but He made clear that his Father is the God of all men.

Recall the ship of Theseus paradox.

The Jewish god is also god of all humans, according to Judaism. Don't tell me please that the Jewish god is not described to be assumed as almighty and all powerful etc. He does have the Jews as his chosen people, according to mythology, but he does not exclude himself anywhere in the scriptures from godding over all mandkind.

It's unlikely that the historical Jesus was concerned with all past present and future men. On the other hand the Christ of faith is concerned with all past present and future men.

The 'render unto Caesar' story concerns both the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith . I referred to the historical Jesus as originator of the story. The Christ of faith is not the originator of the story but is how we interpret the story.

As for the Ship of Theseus problem, it's not a problem if you believe that your soul and your God are works in progress.

Athenians who tried to conserve the original ship did in fact preserve the spirit of the Ship, but the spirit was not quantifiable as it had no physical existence. The spirit of the Ship of Theseus was what the conservators aimed for.

The Ship of Theseus is a reminder that growth is a work in progress and that we can’t judge today‘s religions based on the ideas of yesterday.

[Reflex]

If a person knows what is required to educate the soul, then they know why the concept of God is necessary. Secular education by definition cannot know what it means to educate the soul since its primary function is indoctrination into the established secular agenda. Education concerning the needs of the soul just interfere with the quality of indoctrination necessary to retain the secular agenda

It’s not intended as such and it’s a little dated, but I highly recommend Rollo May’s Man’s Search for Himself.

[Nick_A]

Belinda wrote

The Ship of Theseus is a reminder that growth is a work in progress and that we can’t judge today‘s religions based on the ideas of yesterday.

The essential human struggle that humanity is losing. The seed of the soul of Man is attracted to wholeness. The goal of Christianity as opposed to secularized Christendom is attracted to the wholeness of our source. The lower parts of the collective human soul manifesting our personality is attracted to fragmentation or attachments to "parts" which attract out attention and define seculrism.

The seed of the soul is attracted to wholeness while our lower prts are attracted to the world. They should be able to exist in a complimentary form. It doesn't happen because the egoistic secular influence is too strong and often kills the seed leaving the situation Jesus described as the dead burying their dead.

Progress is defined by secularism as advances in specialization and its God approves. However the ancient concepts like the "Good" defined by Plato and the "ONE" defined by Plotinus are considered old fashioned because they attract the seed of the soul to wholeness.

Secularism is winning but I shudder to think what its obsession with specialization at the expense of enabling the seed of the soul to turn towards wholeness will eventually win.

"Wisdom begins in wonder." - Socrates

Those days are over. Now wisdom is defined as becoming mature enough to follow the dictates of the Great Beast since there is nothing else, no source, to wonder about.

[Reflex]

Belinda wrote

The Ship of Theseus is a reminder that growth is a work in progress and that we can’t judge today‘s religions based on the ideas of yesterday.

The essential human struggle that humanity is losing. The seed of the soul of Man is attracted to wholeness. The goal of Christianity as opposed to secularized Christendom is attracted to the wholeness of our source. The lower parts of the collective human soul manifesting our personality is attracted to fragmentation or attachments to "parts" which attract out attention and define seculrism.

The seed of the soul is attracted to wholeness while our lower prts are attracted to the world. They should be able to exist in a complimentary form. It doesn't happen because the egoistic secular influence is too strong and often kills the seed leaving the situation Jesus described as the dead burying their dead.

Progress is defined by secularism as advances in specialization and its God approves. However the ancient concepts like the "Good" defined by Plato and the "ONE" defined by Plotinus are considered old fashioned because they attract the seed of the soul to wholeness.

Secularism is winning but I shudder to think what its obsession with specialization at the expense of enabling the seed of the soul to turn towards wholeness will eventually win.

"Wisdom begins in wonder." - Socrates

Those days are over. Now wisdom is defined as becoming mature enough to follow the dictates of the Great Beast since there is nothing else, no source, to wonder about.

I'm not worried about it.

The human being cannot live in a condition of emptiness for very long: if he is not growing toward something, he does not merely stagnate; the pent-up potentialities turn into morbidity and despair, and eventually into destructive activities. -- Rollo May, Man's Search for Himself

The pendulum will swing the other way.

[Belinda]

Nick, and Reflex, what I wrote about The Ship of Theseus was not what you both wrote and Nick thought that I said.

What I wrote was :

As for The Ship of Theseus problem, it's not a problem if you believe that your soul and your God are works in progress.

This was similar to Reflex's interpretation of The Ship of Theseus but not quite the same.

The Ship of Theseus problem stems from ontological separation of body and mind, like what Descartes said. The original and actual wooden ship of Theseus with its sails, oars, and accoutrements was not important as a vessel in the decades or centuries after Theseus's accomplishment. It retained ongoing importance as a mental and emotional public symbol, so the impermanence of its wood and metal did not matter very much.It was the ship's form and appearance that mattered together with the national sentiment that caused that form and appearance to be conserved.

By analogy the human individual is made up of biological tissues and mind or soul. Unlike a ship the human individual's body and mind/soul both are impermanent ; bodies and mind/souls together evolve and mature whereas that old ship , after its famous voyage, was a museum piece and national symbol which did not and could not evolve or change. It's unreal and overly sentimental to credit an unchanging mind/soul to a human individual. Very few of us are national symbols or museum pieces.

It's also sentimentally unreal to attribute an unchanging mind/soul to human concepts of God. True, God as eternal is unchanging but 'eternal' means a lot more than 'unchanging'.'Eternal' includes the idea of no change and also the idea of all temporal events as separable events. 'Eternal includes also the idea of God as eternity :the presiding personification of eternity.

God as a human concept is necessary however concepts of God change, adapt, and evolve. My concept of God as eternity itself is comparatively new to me and may change, adapt and evolve some more if I live long enough and retain my mind.

[Reflex]

Theism today is still theism, but the materials used in its formulation have changed and continues to change. So, is today's theism really the theism critics criticize? For the most part, the answer is clearly 'no.' The vehicle simply ain't what it used to be. From my perspective, theism has taken to science to legitimize and understand God while critics are stuck in a rut of blind denial. For instance,

"A human being is the relating of a relation relating to itself -- a synthesis of the Infinite and the finite, Eternal and temporal, Freedom and necessity. That is to say, a human being is a localized region of dominant characteristics."

can be stated as something evidenced by science, but I think you will be hard-pressed to find a non-theist willing to fully investigate its implications and ramifications.

[Nick_A]

The Ship of Theseus seems to me to raise the question of the relationship between essence and appearance. Does the essence of a ship change by changing its external appearance. At what point does the essence of the ship disappear?

A person is like this. The appearance of a person changes all the time. Every week we are in a new body. Does the essence of Man disappear by changing appearance?

Plato wrote of forms. Justice is a form. We have many examples of what we call justice. But what is the essence of justice? Does it disappear because someone does something which appears unjust? So there is objective justice and subjective conceptions of justice.

There are subjective conceptions of God and there is the objective reality of the ONE. No matter how we argue about God it doesn't change the objective reality of the ONE. The ship of Theseus is a subjective creation. when it no longer can serve its purpose its essence is lost and it is just a shell, a memory of once was.

Is Man just a physical shell? If so then when a Man dies there is no essence of Man. There is only appearance. If there is an essence of Man then appearance is just expression of a higher reality within which the meaning and purpose of Man is evident.

[SBE]

The idea of this God is fake, while reality is full of those that are not only believing in falsity but have become it. As sad as this may seem, there is a solution to this rather distorted sense of reality. For every problem there is a solution. We just gotta work it out I suppose.

[Nick_A]

Reflex

The human being cannot live in a condition of emptiness for very long: if he is not growing toward something, he does not merely stagnate; the pent-up potentialities turn into morbidity and despair, and eventually into destructive activities. -- Rollo May, Man's Search for Himself

The pendulum will swing the other way.

I agree. Society is the Great Beast and like all other beasts its movements are all lawful reactions to universal laws. One of these laws refers to the pendulum. A society is born. Gradually it reaches its peak of life. Then the pendulum moves in the other direction. Society begins to die and collapse in on itself. It will hit bottom. Then the cycle starts again with those who survive. It is the nature of life on earth.