Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

[Lacewing]

Anything doubting the supremacy of secularism in the world must be hated. Jesus led the way. His teaching promoted hatred and division. I support them so expect to receive the same hatred. No surprise there.

You are not Jesus and appear unable to represent him clearly, as your convoluted beliefs and ideas distort everything you touch. I am as much Jesus as you are, Nick. Until you get that, you're fooling yourself.

[Eodnhoj7]

Normalcy? Nah. I'm too far gone for that to ever work.

Nonsense! You too can be helped. Never underestimate the power and goodwill of the government to make you normal. It was explained to winston in 1984:

“You are a slow learner, Winston."
"How can I help it? How can I help but see what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four."
"Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Once you are finally indoctrinated into the acceptable belief in relative pragmatism you will immediately feel normal and sane. You will be grateful to your government for the gift of normalcy and sanity until you pass away

LOL! They better hurry. I'm already in my 60's.

Unless they are only kidding, I think Lacewing's and Greta's comments are very telling. I mean, saying "Case closed" in response to "Of course I promote hatred and division" (taken out of context, of course) and Lacewing saying, "Stop pretending that you speak for the Universe," is indicative of a shallowness akin to college students so terrified of discussion that they shut their ears to opposing views and feel compelled to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being racist, dogmatic, intolerant, hateful, etc. Those kinds of comments have absolutely nothing to with what is actually being discussed; i.e., human nature in general.

Greta said, "Reflex is speaking as though beliefs are a choice." No, I'm not. I'm saying making a genuine effort to correlate one's sentiment and philosophy is a choice (assuming, of course, the person has a philosophy the wherewithal to make the effort).

Greta also said, "Still no explanation of the "higher mind", rather just a rather childish "onward Christian soldiers" theme." This is interesting and somewhat bewildering since Greta knows exactly what it means.

Should I enter this debate?

[Nick_A]

Anything doubting the supremacy of secularism in the world must be hated. Jesus led the way. His teaching promoted hatred and division. I support them so expect to receive the same hatred. No surprise there.

You are not Jesus and appear unable to represent him clearly, as your convoluted beliefs and ideas distort everything you touch. I am as much Jesus as you are, Nick. Until you get that, you're fooling yourself.

I don't claim to be Jesus. I do not claim to be anything special. I just support his ideas, If his ideas were hated I know I have to be hated in support of these ancient truths. His ideas cannot be acceptable in a secular world so must be hated. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out.

Why do you think they were happy to get rid of Simone Weil when she graduated. she asked inappropriate questions and acted in ways in support of her philosophy. This is intolerable for the haters of mind opening ideas.

Director of Career Placement, Ecole Normale Supérieure wrote

We shall send the Red Virgin as far away as possible so that we shall never hear of her again

[Nick_A]

Nonsense! You too can be helped. Never underestimate the power and goodwill of the government to make you normal. It was explained to winston in 1984:



Once you are finally indoctrinated into the acceptable belief in relative pragmatism you will immediately feel normal and sane. You will be grateful to your government for the gift of normalcy and sanity until you pass away

LOL! They better hurry. I'm already in my 60's.

Unless they are only kidding, I think Lacewing's and Greta's comments are very telling. I mean, saying "Case closed" in response to "Of course I promote hatred and division" (taken out of context, of course) and Lacewing saying, "Stop pretending that you speak for the Universe," is indicative of a shallowness akin to college students so terrified of discussion that they shut their ears to opposing views and feel compelled to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being racist, dogmatic, intolerant, hateful, etc. Those kinds of comments have absolutely nothing to with what is actually being discussed; i.e., human nature in general.

Greta said, "Reflex is speaking as though beliefs are a choice." No, I'm not. I'm saying making a genuine effort to correlate one's sentiment and philosophy is a choice (assuming, of course, the person has a philosophy the wherewithal to make the effort).

Greta also said, "Still no explanation of the "higher mind", rather just a rather childish "onward Christian soldiers" theme." This is interesting and somewhat bewildering since Greta knows exactly what it means.

Should I enter this debate?

Do you own boxing gloves? Do you believe Jesus was expressing hatred and division in the above quote in which he said he brings a sword?

[Nick_A]

John 15:18

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

Anything doubting the supremacy of secularism in the world must be hated. Jesus led the way. His teaching promoted hatred and division. I support them so expect to receive the same hatred. No surprise there.

You are boorish, rude, patronising, dishonest, projecting, manipulative and you happily admit that you promote division and hatred and have no interest in building bridges or fostering understanding, only causing harm to those whom you believe deserve it.

In other words, you are a troll. End of story.

Greta doesn't appear to know that philosophy is the love of wisdom. she still beiieves it is the love of argument and ad homs and the glorification of knowledge at the expense of perspective. I used this on the Human Intelligence thread but it also fits well here:

The dictionary defines wisdom as “the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting.” Knowledge, on the other hand, is “information gained through experience, reasoning, or acquaintance.” Knowledge can exist without wisdom, but not the other way around. One can be knowledgeable without being wise. Knowledge is knowing how to use a gun; wisdom is knowing when to use it and when to keep it holstered.

God concepts are unnecessary for those caught up in arguing knowledge. But those attracted to the essence of philosophy as the love of wisdom, know it begins with the recognition of eternal truths. A human perspective is not possible without this recognition. Lacking the calling to wisdom we are left with the eternal battle over partial truths which only a tyrant and the resultant slavery can resolve within a secular perspective

[Lacewing]

I don't claim to be Jesus. I do not claim to be anything special. I just support his ideas

You don't know his ideas -- you know only of manipulated interpretations and words of others. So if you think you are following his ideas, or that you represent him, or that you suffer the same repercussions due to your ideas, you are delusionally spinning in your own concoction of beliefs. It's all made-up, and you fashion it to suit yourself and think yourself righteous somehow.

If his ideas were hated I know I have to be hated in support of these ancient truths.

Oh boo hoo! Why don't you be honest about how hateful you and theists are, and stop pretending that you're persecuted for your ancient wisdom. What a load of crap.

Why do you think they were happy to get rid of Simone Weil when she graduated.

There are people happy to get rid of everybody. Stop turning it into something glorified that you can attach yourself to.

Such opposition comes and goes from all directions, in all kinds of forms, for all kinds of reasons, and from all kinds of people, including you. You repeatedly fail to see the sacred and the glory ANYWHERE BUT your little kingdom of ding-dong ideas that you stroke as if they're precious.

It's ridiculous to claim to know Jesus or his words, as it is all made up and distorted to glorify MEN who claim to be aligned with it! And you are no different in that respect! You're not hated for spouting truths, Nick, because that's not at all what you're doing, AND people don't have to hate things they object to... you're simply being blasted for bellowing idiotic claims which you distort into something you can glorify yourself with.

[Lacewing]

those attracted to the essence of philosophy as the love of wisdom, know it begins with the recognition of eternal truths.

Oh really? What eternal truths, Nick? People don't have to fantasize about "eternal truths" in order to be attracted to "the essence of philosophy as the love of wisdom". Stop making up rules based on stupid crap.

A human perspective is not possible without this recognition.

What the hell? Are you just spewing so mindlessly that you can't even recognize truth from crap anymore? Human perspectives are VAST and DO NOT have to align with your little condensed, self-serving perspective.

Lacking the calling to wisdom we are left with the eternal battle over partial truths which only a tyrant and the resultant slavery can resolve within a secular perspective

Your SPIN is ridiculous.

[Greta]

Should I enter this debate?

I can't speak for you but I am personally regretting the thread because it just gave Nick another excuse to attack me. In fact, my entire participation on the forum is feeling that way.

I think that is the idea. I banned him from a forum so now he is driving me away from this one as payback.

It seems illogical to stay here and give this lying narcissist endless free hits to attack me daily. Further, his poor character - the nonstop lying and misrepresentation - brings out the worst in me, which is not the direction I want to go. I am inclined to give Nick this victory and just go as there is no safe space for me here. All the fighting and hostility is not worth it. It's not worth anything at all, just a waste of life.

So good luck with it if you choose to dive in but I personally see this thread as trolled and ruined.

Cheers.

[Reflex]

Greta also said, "Still no explanation of the "higher mind", rather just a rather childish "onward Christian soldiers" theme." This is interesting and somewhat bewildering since Greta knows exactly what it means.

I am asking Nick to explain in his own words because his conduct makes clear that he is regurgitating without actual experience with that which he speaks about - a theoretician, and an ungrounded one.

You can rationalise his spread of division and hatred. I see that as completely at odds with the idea of accessing the "higher mind". Promoting hatred is the very most base possible behaviour. I am surprised that you accept and support that.

I thought you were better than that. My bad.

Look at his gaming now. After explicitly, and proudly, admitting that he promoted hatred and division - in those very words - now he's claiming that that is only an interpretation. Yet it was only a few posts ago - and you think this is credible behaviour?

You cannot possibly have missed that Nick is always trying to foster hatred and division.

Why do you close your eyes to it? Why do you believe that his fostering of hate is a good and positive thing, which you clearly do, given your unwavering support?

Poor Greta! You really have no idea what the “hate” comment is about, do you? I admit I haven’t followed Nick as closely as you, but even I know that the comment is NOT about spreading hatred and division as you take it to mean.

:::sigh::: Why are atheists/agnostics so literal minded? They can’t see the forest for the trees because of it.

[Nick_A]

Lacewing wrote:

It's ridiculous to claim to know Jesus or his words, as it is all made up and distorted to glorify MEN who claim to be aligned with it! And you are no different in that respect! You're not hated for spouting truths, Nick, because that's not at all what you're doing, AND people don't have to hate things they object to... you're simply being blasted for bellowing idiotic claims which you distort into something you can glorify yourself with.

I hope neither you or Greta take this the wrong way since I want to explain why I believe there is so much destructive emotional animosity against Christianity. A lot of this animosity is due to the essence of religion becoming secularized and losing its perspective. Simone Weil offered an extraordinary observation anyone with an interest as to why Christianity becomes perverted should really ponder the depth of what she brings

“The wrong humility leads us to believe that we are nothing in so far as we are ourselves—in so far as we are certain particular human beings.
True humility is the knowledge that we are nothing in so far as we are human beings as such, and, more generally, in so far as we are creatures.
The intelligence plays a great part in this. We have to form a conception of the universal.”

So much truth is so few words. The secularization of Christianity into variations of Christendom has had the effect of labeling people as good or bad and using the concept of secular humility to establish worldly control. Many were made to feel guilty and sometimes it has had a life long detrimental effect.

Simone offers the idea that it isn’t us as individuals who are “bad” but rather the human condition has made it so that we are unaware that we are just creatures of conditioned reactions. Only a universal perspective can offer the place where animal man exists as a necessity on earth but with the potential to serve a conscious purpose within a universal perspective. There is nothing to feel guilty about offending any divine being. Christianity is about rebirth into conscious awakening. Guilt has nothing to do with it. Guilt which has caused so much harm is the crime of secularization. It prevents opening to the human attribute of conscience. There is nothing to feel guilty about awakening to the human condition as it exists within us all. We are what we are. Awakening with the help of grace offers a chance to become consciously truly human. My guess is that many here have suffered the harmful effects of religious secularization. Guilt is a worldly creation while conscience and the experience of remorse is a universal attribute.

I’m aware of the benefits of the essence of religion but I am also aware of the harm caused by religious secularization. I support those who further the essence of religion and philosophy regardless of whatever promotes the growls of the Great Beast.

[Greta]

Greta also said, "Still no explanation of the "higher mind", rather just a rather childish "onward Christian soldiers" theme." This is interesting and somewhat bewildering since Greta knows exactly what it means.

I am asking Nick to explain in his own words because his conduct makes clear that he is regurgitating without actual experience with that which he speaks about - a theoretician, and an ungrounded one.

You can rationalise his spread of division and hatred. I see that as completely at odds with the idea of accessing the "higher mind". Promoting hatred is the very most base possible behaviour. I am surprised that you accept and support that.

I thought you were better than that. My bad.

Look at his gaming now. After explicitly, and proudly, admitting that he promoted hatred and division - in those very words - now he's claiming that that is only an interpretation. Yet it was only a few posts ago - and you think this is credible behaviour?

You cannot possibly have missed that Nick is always trying to foster hatred and division.

Why do you close your eyes to it? Why do you believe that his fostering of hate is a good and positive thing, which you clearly do, given your unwavering support?

Poor Greta! You really have no idea what the “hate” comment is about, do you? I admit I haven’t followed Nick as closely as you, but even I know that the comment is NOT about spreading hatred and division as you take it to mean.

:::sigh::: Why are atheists/agnostics so literal minded? They can’t see the forest for the trees because of it.

I have seen this toxic troll sowing hatred and division on more than this forum for years ... now you tell me that I'm misinterpreting when he actually states what we have observed in him for years? You clearly don't read either.

It's interesting to watch the dynamics between dominants and submissives on forums.

Aside from what appears to be a catastrophic weakness in analytics, in forum terms you are a submissive. A bottom, as they say.

You are so impressed and intimidated by Nick's aggression to the point that you would never dare disagree with him, no matter how rash or ungrounded his claims. .

[Reflex]

I am asking Nick to explain in his own words because his conduct makes clear that he is regurgitating without actual experience with that which he speaks about - a theoretician, and an ungrounded one.

You can rationalise his spread of division and hatred. I see that as completely at odds with the idea of accessing the "higher mind". Promoting hatred is the very most base possible behaviour. I am surprised that you accept and support that.

I thought you were better than that. My bad.

Look at his gaming now. After explicitly, and proudly, admitting that he promoted hatred and division - in those very words - now he's claiming that that is only an interpretation. Yet it was only a few posts ago - and you think this is credible behaviour?

You cannot possibly have missed that Nick is always trying to foster hatred and division.

Why do you close your eyes to it? Why do you believe that his fostering of hate is a good and positive thing, which you clearly do, given your unwavering support?

Poor Greta! You really have no idea what the “hate” comment is about, do you? I admit I haven’t followed Nick as closely as you, but even I know that the comment is NOT about spreading hatred and division as you take it to mean.

:::sigh::: Why are atheists/agnostics so literal minded? They can’t see the forest for the trees because of it.

I have seen this toxic troll sowing hatred and division on more than this forum for years ... now you tell me that I'm misinterpreting when he actually states what we have observed in him for years? You clearly don't read either.

It's interesting to watch the dynamics between dominants and submissives on forums.

Aside from what appears to be a catastrophic weakness in analytics, in forum terms you are a submissive. A bottom, as they say.

You are so impressed and intimidated by Nick's aggression to the point that you would never dare disagree with him, no matter how rash or ungrounded his claims. .

LOL! You don’t see the hypocrisy of your post?

[Nick_A]

Reflex, Greta wrote concerning your disappointing behavior

Aside from what appears to be a catastrophic weakness in analytics, in forum terms you are a submissive. A bottom, as they say.

You are so impressed and intimidated by Nick's aggression to the point that you would never dare disagree with him, no matter how rash or ungrounded his claims.

.

I didn't know you were a bottom with a weakness in analytics. I learn something new every day. To make matter worse you wouldn't have the nerve to disagree with me. You didn't know I was such a tough guy did you? One false move and I'll attack you with a Plato quote.

One thing you have to say about Greta: she is definitely a piece of work. And she is actually a mod on a philosophy forum. You can't write this stuff.

Nietzsche wrote that God is dead. The idea has devolved into "Philosophy is dead" The only thing left is to organize the attack against the bad guys as the indoctrinated pick up the pitchforks and light the torches in defense of secularism

[Nick_A]

If Greta were at the trial of Socrates she would have demanded his death for his hatred and divisive opinions. Socrates hatred and divisive attitude was documented. He actually questioned the Gods of the Great Beast and "asking politico-philosophic questions of his students" That sounds like me. I would have been next to drink and Greta would have supplied the glass. From Wiki

The trial of Socrates (399 BC) was held to determine the philosopher’s guilt of two charges: asebeia (impiety) against the pantheon of Athens, and corruption of the youth of the city-state; the accusers cited two impious acts by Socrates: “failing to acknowledge the gods that the city acknowledges” and “introducing new deities”.
The death sentence of Socrates was the legal consequence of asking politico-philosophic questions of his students, from which resulted the two accusations of moral corruption and of impiety. At trial, the majority of the dikasts (male-citizen jurors chosen by lot) voted to convict him of the two charges; then, consistent with common legal practice, voted to determine his punishment, and agreed to a sentence of death to be executed by Socrates’s drinking a poisonous beverage of hemlock.

[Greta]

Socrates hatred and divisive attitude was documented. He actually questioned the Gods of the Great Beast and "asking politico-philosophic questions of his students" That sounds like me.

Nick and Socrates - peers

Your delusions are both florid and extraordinary. It reminds of the times you compared yourself to Jesus, being persecuted by wicked secularists. Bit of a step down to just being like Socrates, isn't it?

Do you also believe that you are the reincarnation of Alexander the Great's chief eunuch or was that your bit of fluff, Reflex?