Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

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Nick_A wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:49 pm
Greta wrote:Then you have Nick, who not so long ago complained about how "secularists" are always insulting him, who now figures that insulting behaviour is not the responsibility of the perpetrator. Accountability - personal, practical and intellectual - is out of fashion in the west today.
As usual, Greta responds emotionally. For example, you can throw all your intended insults at me but they are meaningless in the context of concepts.
The context was right, the insult was right, so what's your problem, Nick_A?

If you can't tell the context from a hole in the ground, it's not Greta's fault, it's yours.

So please stop pretending you are stupid, Nick_A. You are not stupid, but only when the situation warrants your ONLY escape to use that as an excuse.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

uwot wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 8:59 am Well without seeing the argument presented, the defining feature of all early civilisations is that they were founded on floodplains, where agriculture is relatively easy. This is true of the Yellow River in China, the Indus in India, the Tigris/Euphrates in Mesopotamia and the Nile in Egypt. What keeps a civilisation together is cereal crops. What is also characteristic is that the different communities and city states that made up early civilisations had a range of different religious beliefs, much as most nation states do today.
It really is a shame the "powers that be" restrict the viewing of the video.

The video explains that religion itself may be hard-wired and precedes settlements by thousands of years. It also explains that there wasn't any organized religion until hunter-gatherers settled down to grow crops and raise animals. However, I have issues with concluding statement.

I agree that those who believe together, stay together; I also agree that war and belief (idolatry) go hand-in-hand. That is precisely why a universal ideal -- not uniformity -- is indispensable in a world that can be destroyed with the push of a button. We don't have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order to spiritually to be alike. We can be empowered to live individual lives of originality and freedom before God (or the One) without harmony being purchased by the sacrifice of free personality and spiritual originality. Harmony must grow out of the fact that the hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny. Such unity is derived only from the consciousness that each of us is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of Wholeness.

This implies two things which always will be found in the lives of individual believers. First, we are possessed with a common motive for life service. Second, we all have a common goal of existence; thereby proving to ourselves and the universe that we have become like its Creator -- however it is conceived. For me, consistency of thought and following it through to consider its final repercussions is critical. And this is where atheism and agnosticism (the terms are really synonymous) fail miserably.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Nick_A »

-1- wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:12 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:49 pm
Greta wrote:Then you have Nick, who not so long ago complained about how "secularists" are always insulting him, who now figures that insulting behaviour is not the responsibility of the perpetrator. Accountability - personal, practical and intellectual - is out of fashion in the west today.
As usual, Greta responds emotionally. For example, you can throw all your intended insults at me but they are meaningless in the context of concepts.
The context was right, the insult was right, so what's your problem, Nick_A?

If you can't tell the context from a hole in the ground, it's not Greta's fault, it's yours.

So please stop pretending you are stupid, Nick_A. You are not stupid, but only when the situation warrants your ONLY escape to use that as an excuse.
It was a shock when I first learned of the difference between the sentences "I am angry" and "Anger is within me." When a person becomes consumed with anger, they no longer are aware of "I" and become a thing. I am angry refers to becoming a thing. Anger is within me recognizes that I is not this thing but rather this thing is within me.After admitting that this is true, I could no longer justify blind anger as desrable.

It is the same with insult. If I allow myself to feel justified in claiming insult, it is justifying a weakness. When a person witnesses how easily they become insult and lose the sense of I and become "insult" it is part of learning to "know thyself" and the workings of the human psych. Just admitting the obvious can become personally beneficial.

Greta becomes insult. It is natural for emotional people to become and defend an expression of negative emotion. People can hurl all sorts of intended insults at my beliefs. It is to be expected. People far greater than me have been bombarded with all sorts of intended insults. So if I've learned from them, it is natural to attract the same intended insults at concepts which threaten the supremacy of secularism and refer to the fault within the philosophy which essentially is psychological denial of the third dimension of thought or what reconciles duality from a higher level of conscious awareness
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

It was a shock when I first learned of the difference between the sentences "I am angry" and "Anger is within me."
I know what you mean. It's like a rude (and empowering) awakening.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

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Belinda wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:57 amReflex wrote:
"Who's logic? Who's reason?" in order to destroy your premise that logic and reason are sufficient.
Deductive logic is universal. True, inductive logic and reasoning is local and relative to others' logic and reasoning. Most people when they say " reason" mean Enlightenment reasoning which is naturalistic and sceptical.
It's interesting to watch those schisms simultaneously narrow and widen. When chatting with Reflex and a couple of theists on another forum, I see significant narrowing of the gaps, where science is realistically accepted by mystics, and some mystical intuitions have been verified in principle by observations of quantum phenomena. A bridging of the physical and mental.

Then there is the widening schism, exemplified by Nick's prejudice and aggressive ideology that drives his reckless, unethical approach - bare knuckle discussion. It is the mindset of war - and many today are preparing mentally already. This "angry tribe" cannot countenance conciliation because that would be seen to them as weakness, surrender. This is a worldview that sees others more as threats than opportunities.

So we have increasing political divisions being oddly coupled with increasing metaphysical agreement, a situation where the ostensibly pious become increasingly profane and the ostensibly secular become increasingly Spinozan.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

Belinda wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:57 am Reflex wrote:
"Who's logic? Who's reason?" in order to destroy your premise that logic and reason are sufficient.
Deductive logic is universal. True, inductive logic and reasoning is local and relative to others' logic and reasoning. Most people when they say " reason" mean Enlightenment reasoning which is naturalistic and sceptical.
Deductive reason is presumptive. So, too, is it’s universal applicability. “Enlightenment reasoning which is naturalistic and sceptical“ is bankrupt because it is incapable of producing dividends of social gain and persists, in the face of each recurring universe phenomenon, in making its objections known by referring what is admittedly higher back into that which is admittedly lower. Consistency demands the recognition of the activities of a purposive Creator.

But “Enlightenment reasoning” isn’t interested in consistency.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Belinda »

Reflex wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 8:13 am
Belinda wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 9:57 am Reflex wrote:
"Who's logic? Who's reason?" in order to destroy your premise that logic and reason are sufficient.
Deductive logic is universal. True, inductive logic and reasoning is local and relative to others' logic and reasoning. Most people when they say " reason" mean Enlightenment reasoning which is naturalistic and sceptical.
Deductive reason is presumptive. So, too, is it’s universal applicability. “Enlightenment reasoning which is naturalistic and sceptical“ is bankrupt because it is incapable of producing dividends of social gain and persists, in the face of each recurring universe phenomenon, in making its objections known by referring what is admittedly higher back into that which is admittedly lower. Consistency demands the recognition of the activities of a purposive Creator.

But “Enlightenment reasoning” isn’t interested in consistency.
Reflex, I agree. It would be nice if there were a purposive creator.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by uwot »

Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmI agree that those who believe together, stay together...
You have that in common with Marxists and some Muslims.
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmWe don't have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order to spiritually to be alike.
Would it not be enough to all think that people should be free to believe what they choose?
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmHarmony must grow out of the fact that the hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny.
But it isn't a fact. I don't know what you hope for, but I really do not hope to spend eternity with any god described in any holy book.
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmSuch unity is derived only from the consciousness that each of us is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of Wholeness.
Can we not be united in our respect for each other's opinion?
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote
Then there is the widening schism, exemplified by Nick's prejudice and aggressive ideology that drives his reckless, unethical approach - bare knuckle discussion. It is the mindset of war - and many today are preparing mentally already. This "angry tribe" cannot countenance conciliation because that would be seen to them as weakness, surrender. This is a worldview that sees others more as threats than opportunities.

So we have increasing political divisions being oddly coupled with increasing metaphysical agreement, a situation where the ostensibly pious become increasingly profane and the ostensibly secular become increasingly Spinozan.
What is the basis of the unethical thought I further which had been introduced and hated virtually from the beginning? Of course there have always been men of science who were men of being at the same time. Nothing new here. Greta is right that this unethical thought has been so insulting that it has often led to war rather than contemplation. This unethical thought begins with the question: “What is man?”

The Greta mind is only concerned with politics. The only important consideration for the Greta mind which represents secularism is what we DO. It is argued by politics. Unethical thought is concerned with what we ARE: "who am I?" The most profane unethical thought asserts that we don’t “know thyself.” Can there be anything more offensive to the Greta mind than admitting that since we don’t know who or what we ARE, the question of what we DO and it relationship to politics can only result in hypocrisy?

Yes this unethical mindset should lead to a beneficial war but rarely does. Where Greta is concerned with external enemies and making war against people who question the supremacy of the Beast. Attacking Trump follows the path to victory. My unethical thought is concerned with making war against my stomach.
“It struck him that in moments of crisis one is never fighting against an external enemy, but always against one’s own body... On the battlefield, in the torture chamber, on a sinking ship, the issues that you are fighting for are always forgotten, because the body swells up until it fills the universe, and even when you are not paralysed by fright or screaming with pain, life is a moment-to-moment struggle against hunger or cold or sleeplessness, against a sour stomach or an aching tooth.”― George Orwell, 1984
Unethical thought which stresses the need to know thyself as opposed to imagining oneself in order to become consciously human as opposed to an indoctrinated creature of reaction is an offensive idea. It suggests that we don’t know what we ARE. Ridiculous! We are surrounded by experts who tell us what we ARE. It is offensive since it questions the wisdom of secular government to tell us what we are. What could be more offensive?

Which is more important: the war against the Greta mind and its righteous indignation or the war against my stomach? A deeply philosophical question.
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 10:51 am
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmI agree that those who believe together, stay together...
You have that in common with Marxists and some Muslims.
Taking things out of context like that is unbecoming. I also made the point that ideas are less important than a ideals.
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmWe don't have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order to spiritually to be alike.
Would it not be enough to all think that people should be free to believe what they choose?
Not without conscious awareness of a common core.
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmHarmony must grow out of the fact that the hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny.
But it isn't a fact. I don't know what you hope for, but I really do not hope to spend eternity with any god described in any holy book.
It’s not? We don’t have an identical origin, nature and destiny? Naturalism seems to suggest that we do.
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmSuch unity is derived only from the consciousness that each of us is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of Wholeness.
Can we not be united in our respect for each other's opinion?

You mean something like what snowflakes demand?
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by uwot »

Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmI agree that those who believe together, stay together...
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 10:51 amYou have that in common with Marxists and some Muslims.
Taking things out of context like that is unbecoming. I also made the point that ideas are less important than a ideals.
So what is this unifying "ideal" you think we should all subscribe to?
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmWe don't have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order to spiritually to be alike.
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 10:51 amWould it not be enough to all think that people should be free to believe what they choose?
Not without a common core.
Why not Marxism or Islam?
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmHarmony must grow out of the fact that the hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny.
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 10:51 amBut it isn't a fact. I don't know what you hope for, but I really do not hope to spend eternity with any god described in any holy book.
It’s not? We don’t have an identical origin, nature and destiny? Naturalism seems to suggest that we do.
You were talking about "the hope of each of us".
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmSuch unity is derived only from the consciousness that each of us is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of Wholeness.
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 10:51 amCan we not be united in our respect for each other's opinion?
You mean something like what snowflakes demand?
How do you imagine you can achieve "Harmony" by referring to others as "snowflakes"?
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pm Why not Marxism or Islam?
Why not idolatry of any kind?
You were talking about "the hope of each of us".
Was I? I said, "The hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny." Where did I say the hope of each of us is the same?
How do you imagine you can achieve "Harmony" by referring to others as "snowflakes"?
I don't. It's a description. Do you have a better one?
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by uwot »

Reflex wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 9:54 pm
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pm Why not Marxism or Islam?
Why not idolatry of any kind?
My point exactly. If everyone agrees with any idolatry, everyone is happy. What makes yours better than any other?
Reflex wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 9:54 pm
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pmYou were talking about "the hope of each of us".
Was I?
Yes.
Reflex wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 9:54 pmI said, "The hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny." Where did I say the hope of each of us is the same?
Actually, you said:
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmHarmony must grow out of the fact that the hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny.
You also said:
Reflex wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 10:22 pmTaking things out of context like that is unbecoming.
Is it not unbecoming when you do it?
Reflex wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 9:54 pm
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pmHow do you imagine you can achieve "Harmony" by referring to others as "snowflakes"?
I don't. It's a description. Do you have a better one?
I don't know. Who exactly are you trying to describe?
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

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Reflex wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 9:54 pm
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pm Why not Marxism or Islam?
-1- wrote:
I think uwot meant that marxists, muslims and christians live in harmony, and mix well each finding their own happiness or disaster, as per person.

So it's not idolatry of any kind, because you still meant that idolatry is universal in the group.
Why not idolatry of any kind?
You were talking about "the hope of each of us".
Was I? I said, "The hope of each of us is identical in origin, nature, and destiny." Where did I say the hope of each of us is the same? +++++++ To me, the reddish and the greenish are identical. Can you spot the difference? I can't spot the difference.+++++++
How do you imagine you can achieve "Harmony" by referring to others as "snowflakes"?
I don't. ++you don't imagine, you don't refer, or you don't achieve harmony? this is quite trimbiguous.++ It's a description. ++++ EAach is a description. You still haven't cleared up the trimbiguity. ++++ Do you have a better one? ============Well, I don't know. We could have a two-way contest, if you like. :) =============
The bolded and / or coloured parts were inserted by -1- except for the two quotes, one each by uwot and by Reflex, which two were identical in wording.

(I am not big on coloring, but this post was best responded to by coloring my insertions.)
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Re: Is the concept of "God" necessary, let alone real?

Post by Reflex »

uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 10:31 pm My point exactly. If everyone agrees with any idolatry, everyone [within that group] is happy. What makes yours better than any other?
The fact that there is no group. There is the perception that all of us have the same origin, nature and destiny no matter what our individual beliefs may be ; that whatsoever we do, we do unto our greater Self.
Reflex wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 9:54 pm
uwot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 7:29 pmYou were talking about "the hope of each of us".
Was I?
Yes.
Amazing. Some people would rather make themselves look foolish than admit they misunderstood something.
Who exactly are you trying to describe?
:roll:
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