The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

[Atla]

It's just discussion.

Stop talking yourself so seriously.

It's just discussion.

It's just discussion..what part of that does not compute with you dude?

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Lol - you're the one who spread her nonsense like an unhinged fanatic on several forums, like a machine. You addressed me this time too.

For someone who doesn't exist and doesn't care and doesn't take any of this seriously, you sure are going at it.

[commonsense]

Any chance we could get back to the OP and leave the ad hominem comments behind?

[Nick_A]

No. You are looking around during the process of existence and limiting yourself to what your senses reveal as they function within the process of existence. But the process of existence takes place within NOW and the eternal values which maintain existence are within NOW.. The only way you can know is through intuition and what Zen calls satori and Christianity calls gnosis. Without these experiences you will just go on arguing.

That's self-refuting. Our intuition is also bound by the process of existence, so we can't know these "eternal values" through it.
There is also zero sign that "eternal values" would maintain existence.

Zen satori isn't like this either, don't compare it to Christian gnosis.

Human consciousness without content when it is experienced through intuition, satori, or gnosis, is an expression of a quality of NOW rather than a reaction normal for existence. You are arguing against what you are closed to.

[Atla]

Human consciousness without content

It's rather impossible to completely empty our individual human consciousness.

when it is experienced through intuition

It's well understood in science that intuition is a part of human consciousness, so if we have our intuition going, then human consciousness is not without content.

You seem to be saying that intuition is outside the human, and that which is experiencing is outside both? You seem to have split us into 2-3 realities.

satori, or gnosis

The Eastern understanding of awakening comes in many forms. The Zen approach in particular tends to avoid beliefs, Zen can't even be put into words. I find it misleading to equate Zen satori with gnosis. They awaken to THIS world.
I would agree though that many versions of Buddhism are kinda similar to gnosis. They usually have unfounded beliefs in karma and rebirth etc.

is an expression of a quality of NOW

NOW isn't expressed in any way, because there is nothing to be expressed. Of course those who realize the NOW, will have some kind of sensation of this realization, but that's a content of their own human consciousness.

The classical trap, classical mistake here is to believe that this sensation belongs to a higher reality.

You are arguing against what you are closed to.

On the contrary. I'm not closed to it, I went through the full awakening process. And for example now I find it difficult to even have a sense of passage of time anymore.
What I'm arguing against are misconceptions about awakening. There are several traps that people fall into. There is no sign that there are eternal values, even with awakening, so why should "secular progressives" believe in it?

[Walker]

Eternal values are within NOW. NOW is beyond the limits of creation bounded by time and space. The process of creation and the realm of science occurs within NOW. What is the scientific alternative to NOW?

As far as I know, everything is within the eternal NOW, it's not possible not to be. But since this applies to everything, it has no special consequences.

So I can look around within the eternal NOW, and I can find spacetime. But I can't find this realm of eternal values.

Where is it, what is it? How do you know you aren't just making it up?

There’s some eternal values going on in this video.

It's a video of a worried, and yet fearless man.

The same values can be found at the watering hole, with lunch and dinner drinking side-by-side.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5937855/c ... serengeti/

[Atla]

There’s some eternal values going on in this video.

It's a video of a worried, and yet fearless man.

The same values can be found at the watering hole, with lunch and dinner drinking side-by-side.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5937855/c ... serengeti/

I think you are confusing values we should agree upon with eternal values from a higher reality.

[Walker]

Well, if you're to ladderize it, life is the peak.

Doesn't get any higher.

The threat to life is held back for awhile by the eternal values of mutual fearlessness, shared.

Fearlessness is not something you can decide, or agree upon.

This is why only a fool would seek to be stranded in a car, with death.

[Atla]

Well, if you're to ladderize it, life is the peak.

Doesn't get any higher.

The threat to life is held back for awhile by the eternal values of mutual fearlessness, shared.

Fearlessness is not something you can decide, or agree upon.

This is why only a fool would seek to be stranded in a car, with death.

"Mr Hayes said he tried to slow his breathing so the animal wouldn’t sense his fear.
'Honestly, it was probably one of the scariest moments of my life while it was happening.' "

Doesn't sound fearless to me. You can also see the fear on his face.

And the cat has no idea that its life is in grave danger, otherwise it would be afraid.

Fear is an emotional reaction inside the body anyway. What does that have to do with an eternal value from a higher reality?

[Walker]

You should maybe think about it, I think.



(For one think, anything the man says is an afterthought to rationalize what the hell just happened, with death's breath ruffling his collar.)

[Atla]

You should maybe think about it, I think.



(For one think, anything the man says is an afterthought to rationalize what the hell just happened, with death's breath ruffling his collar.)

I fail to see the wisdom. If you panic / show fear / try to run from a big cat, it will probably hunt you down and kill you. So you have to freeze and try to show no fear.

If you want fearlessness, well psychopaths usually feel no fear. They can't. And they are the worst possible kind of human on the planet.

[Walker]

Think about it some more.
Don’t hold back.
Take your time, no need to report back with nothing.

For all we know, the man is using a thick sheet of plexiglass between him and death, to punk for fame.

However at some point, in order to discuss such things probability becomes assumption, empiricism gets set aside for principles that reveal why, and how, and so on, concerning the one thing.

The nameless thing of a thousand names.*

Plexiglass would seem less improbable than likely, given past incidents of fake news.


* “And not finding this nameless thing of a thousand names which he has always sought, he has cultivated faith – faith in a savior or an ideal – and faith invariably breeds violence.”

- J. Krishnamurti

[Atla]

Think about it some more.
Don’t hold back.
Take your time, no need to report back with nothing.

For all we know, the man is using a thick sheet of plexiglass between him and death, to punk for fame.

However at some point, in order to discuss such things probability becomes assumption, empiricism gets set aside for principles that reveal why, and how, and so on, concerning the one thing.

The nameless thing of a thousand names.*

Plexiglass would seem less improbable than likely, given past incidents of fake news.


* “And not finding this nameless thing of a thousand names which he has always sought, he has cultivated faith – faith in a savior or an ideal – and faith invariably breeds violence.”

- J. Krishnamurti

How is a curious big cat crawling into a car, connected to one of the Hindu understandings of awakening?

[Nick_A]

Atia

It's well understood in science that intuition is a part of human consciousness, so if we have our intuition going, then human consciousness is not without content.

You seem to be saying that intuition is outside the human, and that which is experiencing is outside both? You seem to have split us into 2-3 realities.

Why must human consciousness have content. Suppose it is just door leading to understanding of a higher quality of being.

"When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door." ~ Simone Weil

Resolving the contradiction as she describes it requires abandoning attachment to the content and allowing resolution from a higher level of reality. For that to happen meditation must pass through the door of consciousness without content.

NOW isn't expressed in any way, because there is nothing to be expressed. Of course those who realize the NOW, will have some kind of sensation of this realization, but that's a content of their own human consciousness.

The classical trap, classical mistake here is to believe that this sensation belongs to a higher reality.

As I understand it, an experience of higher consciousness taking place in the higher conscious parts of our collective essence occurs in an instant. It quickly devolves into and is interpreted by our lower parts. The interpretation doesn’t belong to a higher reality but the instant does. The difficulty for any genuine mystic is to retain the experience of the instant and not sacrifice it to interpretations.

What I'm arguing against are misconceptions about awakening. There are several traps that people fall into. There is no sign that there are eternal values, even with awakening, so why should "secular progressives" believe in it?

Eternal values are felt by objective conscience. Consciousness reveals facts. Objective conscience reveals their “meaning,” their value in relation to universal purpose and how they relate to subjective values. A person who experiences objective conscience will experience eternal values. They have a distinctive inner taste. It isn’t a matter of secular progressives believing anything. The sad part is that they have allowed living experiences to close their minds to the experience of reality greater than that of the World. This IMO is a very unfortunate negative reaction

[Atla]

Why must human consciousness have content.

Well technically it mustn't, but then we are pretty much braindead/minddead.

Suppose it is just door leading to understanding of a higher quality of being.

I can suppose anything I want, that doesn't make it true.

"When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door." ~ Simone Weil
Resolving the contradiction as she describes it requires abandoning attachment to the content and allowing resolution from a higher level of reality. For that to happen meditation must pass through the door of consciousness without content.

Or an answer exists, you just didn't find it. What is this impossible contradiction?

As I understand it, an experience of higher consciousness taking place in the higher conscious parts of our collective essence occurs in an instant. It quickly devolves into and is interpreted by our lower parts. The interpretation doesn’t belong to a higher reality but the instant does. The difficulty for any genuine mystic is to retain the experience of the instant and not sacrifice it to interpretations.

You understand wrong. That experience of higher consciousness is still in your head (your human consciousness). A genuine mystic knows this, a false mystic will believe to have found a higher reality. What you call genuine is typical spiritual conmanship.

Eternal values are felt by objective conscience. Consciousness reveals facts. Objective conscience reveals their “meaning,” their value in relation to universal purpose and how they relate to subjective values. A person who experiences objective conscience will experience eternal values. They have a distinctive inner taste. It isn’t a matter of secular progressives believing anything. The sad part is that they have allowed living experiences to close their minds to the experience of reality greater than that of the World. This IMO is a very unfortunate negative reaction

There is no objective conscience. Conscience is a part of human consciousness and some people have no conscience at all.

Conscience isn't about meaning. Meaning is also given, assigned by the human consciousness.

There is no such thing as a universal purpose.

Almost everything you write is baseless, refuted, made-up and disingenuous. But this way you can pretend to be better than those nasty progressives huh.

[Dubious]

Joseph Campbell...I've never even heard of until you mentioned him, so had no idea he'd said that about eternity being now...so now I'm interested in listening to what hes talking about.

Glad you made his acquaintance. There's a lot one can learn from him, not least, in the way he expresses himself. One of my favorite books by him, also among his shortest and last, is The Inner Reaches of Outer Space : Metaphor As Myth and As Religion. Not always an easy read! Though I may not see everything exactly the same way it nevertheless inspires thought. Like Nietzsche & Kierkegaard he never asked for unconditional surrender. If you're a member of Amazon you can take a good look inside.

https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Reaches-Ou ... dpSrc=srch