Prostitution and Eternal Values

[Arising_uk]

No body has ever lived. ...

I'm sorry but every body has lived and it dies.

There is no beginning to the body and there is no end.

You've clearly not been paying attention.

To know real death you would have to be there in death to witness it...you talk of a conditioned mind, it's all illusory knowledge, your knowledge informs illusory reality.

Ah! Here is the issue, you don't believe that when a body dies one dies with it and the problem with your argument is that you already tacitly assume that there is a way to be alive without being a body but can provide no shred of evidence that this is the case other than your wishful thinking.

[Arising_uk]

Who can know about death?

No one as they are dead.

Find out who? who is the knower...can you locate the exact location of the knower of death... ?

But there is no 'knower' as they are dead?

All knowledge is illusory...you have to do you're nobody home work to understand what's being spoken about here.

I've probably done my homework long before you and to a deeper depth of experience and as such I think you don't understand what knowledge actually is.

If you refuse to self inquire you will miss the point.

tell me how you have 'self-inquired'?

You cannot KNOW SOMETHING...unless you have actually experienced it.

Not true, there are a many things I know that I have not experienced but know through knowledge, for example, I know that if I jump in front of the tube it will hurt and likely end up in death.

Death is not an experience.

You're right, dying is the experience and death cannot be experienced because you are dead.

You talk about death as if you personally know it, as if you've personally experienced it...stop talking BS

I talk about death from the viewpoint of one who has held a dead body, you?

You cannot know you are dead as you've already said...so what makes you think you can know if someone else is dead...it's just a belief, it's not real.

Have you not held a dead body?

HOW DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE ELSE IS DEAD IF YOU CANNOT KNOW YOU'RE OWN DEATH?

Becaause I have held a dead body, you?

[Arising_uk]

There is nobody inside a body.

Truish, there is a body but a body with language has a self.

Animation of the visible is invisible.

You just said there is no 'animation'?

You are addicted to your story because that's all there is alive here.

No idea what this means?

There's no movie without the belief.

Or this.

[Arising_uk]

So you believe that since we cannot know the dharma which produces eternal values scientifically, it doesn’t exist. ...

No, I pointed out to you that the Greek philosophers disagreed with you, that a Christian German philosopher disagreed with you and that natural philosophers have come up with a pretty good way of deciding what exists or not that also produces handy results for the human condition.

This is the modern educated approach – the complete reliance on sensory or scientific proofs and the denial of all that opposes its dominance. It is what I call secular bigotry and what leads to spirit killing in the young. ..

Actually it's called the history of western Philosophy and what you yak about is American consumer Capitalism but since you are incapable, due to being an American, of discussing the alternatives to Capitalism you make up a load of old toss.

We understand what it means to be bigoted against whites, blacks, Jews, Christians etc. ...

Funny that as I tend to remember Christians being bigoted against Blacks and Jews and find myself hard stretched to remember bigotry against whites?

Lots to be bigoted against. ...

I'll take your word for it.

But somehow bigotry against the desire to understand with the whole of oneself is considered not only acceptable but necessary for indoctrination. ...

You're still very short on explaining exactly what you mean by understanding "with the whole of oneself"?

Where modern secular bigotry teaches what to know, the old ways teach how to understand.. Where modern secular bigotry is concerned with learning new facts, the Ways are concerned with how to remember what has been forgotten or what Plato called anamnesis, and those like Einstein refer to as a product of intuition. ...

How about we just start with Plato's system of education first and giving all a free comprehensive education in the sciences, arts and humanities. You'd support that?

Nothing can be more offensive to the secular bigot than questioning the superiority of literal thinking and its reliance on the senses for revealing human meaning and purpose. ...

Go ahead, give me an example of what you have had revealed to you that has not relied upon your senses?

Those who are not so bigoted know that human “understanding" requires not only intellectual verification but impartial emotional and sensory verification as well. ...

And this is where you are in error about the role that 'emotions' play in Reason but I'll be interested in what 'sensory verification' you claim given you just claimed "Nothing can be more offensive to the secular bigot than questioning the superiority of literal thinking and its reliance on the senses for revealing human meaning and purpose."

In short, unless a person experiences the external world intellectually, with emotional detachment, and sensory discrimination simultaneously, they may know some facts but do not understand their significance. They cannot truly understand. That is what is so dangerous about the secular bigot. They deny the ability for intuition and anamnesis with the whole of oneself in favor of the interpretations of the literal mind. It easily results in lost souls starved for meaning and even spirit killing. It is the modern way that practices idolatry of the Great Beast. I’ll stick with the old fashioned way with awakening to eternal values and objective human meaning and purpose as its goal.

But you show zero sign of being such an enlightened being?

The secular bigot only recognizes existence below Plato's divided line. It denies the process of existence above the line and is opposed to what enables a person to "remember". It is a shame but welcome to the human condition.

I look forward to you walking your talk.

[Nick_A]

Arising

Go ahead, give me an example of what you have had revealed to you that has not relied upon your senses?

First of all I believe in a free society being the best alternative for the fallen human condition. Capitalism is necessary for a free society. Replace it with socialism and people are no longer free. Secondly if you are unaware of anti white bigotry, you are not following the news.

But it is worth commenting on my own experience. You probably will not understand it but I should do it for the sake of lurkers. Secularism lives in a world governed by duality; this or that. It is has not experienced the third dimension of thought or that which reconciles duality from a higher perspective. Experiencing the third dimension of thought doesn’t come through reason but rather through intuition inspired by influences of a certain quality of being. I will quote from an article.

https://parabola.org/2017/07/30/the-hidden-third/

……………………………………….The call, moreover, is blocked from our ears by deep habits of thought and language. Inherited from the ancient Greek world, their source lies in binary logic: either this or that but not both. Nicolescu’s rejection of binary-ism is strong: “The fiendish dialectics of binary thought have the redoubtable yet subtle force of being able to kill in the name of ideas.” The death consists in foreclosing the middle, the “third not given”: what is there before and remains there after the division into two. Yet that death preserves in hiding the excluded element, which allows a direct perception of multiple levels of reality, up to that of Absolute Evidence. Fear of confronting a many-dimensioned cosmos lies behind the embrace of the binary. We opt for ready knowledge and survival of the status quo rather than participation in a work of co-creation. Because we fail to see the ambiguity in “yes or no,” our spirit is blinded and put in shackles……………………………………………….

Experiencing the third dimension of thought is like experiencing your first orgasm. No amount of reasoning will allow a person to understand it. It must be experienced. Once this vertical dimension of thought is experienced, many what seems to be impossible questions are easily resolved. I’ve experienced that there is an alternative to this or that and reliance on what the senses can provide. You will continue to argue “this or that” and I’ll continue striving to open to the third dimension of thought

I was fortunate to have such an experience which has enabled me to admit the limitations of duality and the danger of spirit killing in the cause of secular ideas.

[Dubious]

We've also learned that the estimated 1.324 billion Hindus in India are all full of shit for taking eternal values seriously.

Among all the 1.324 billion Hindus who take eternal values seriously would that also include followers of these eminent gurus who definitely take their $eternal values$ seriously.

Also, since you now inhabit the rarified realms of the 3rd dimension of thought what's the point of talking to us dribbling idiots? Isn't it time you capitalize on your enlightenment as in these examples:

http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/society/a ... above-west

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5JKzT19xAc

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pix-i ... 141120.htm

[Dontaskme]

But there is no 'knower' as they are dead?

The one that cannot know death is the same one that cannot know life.

All knowledge informs illusory reality....the word 'reality' is not reality...words are fiction.

Reality is tacit.

The story is the dream...that no one is dreaming.

[Dontaskme]

Animation of the visible is invisible.

You just said there is no 'animation'?

That's right..invisible means non. But non cannot be known, therefore it has to appear in the visible...in-visible.. known.

You are addicted to your story because that's all there is alive here.

No idea what this means?

There's no movie without the belief.

Or this.

That's because you have not been paying attention.

[Dontaskme]

So what have we learned from this thread? We've learned that by definition the secularist cannot objectively prostitute themselves since they lack recognition of any eternal values to sell cheaply. They either reject objective values altogether and create their own reality or allow the Great Beast to determine their values. So either way since values change with the tides, there is nothing genuine to prostitute. This is why the secularist cannot discuss the concept of prostitution but must limit themselves to what society subjectively calls prostitutes.

You are right Nick.

Humans cannot function sanely in the world without an absolute eternal moral /value law giver.

Supposing there does exist an individual ''someone'' separate from ''someone'' else..who believes they are truly a separate entity with their own unique brand of what constitutes moral conduct, beliefs and values ...and that only they have personal private copyright over. If that was true then it would be true for every other separate human being....but this would not work, humans could not live by such a fragmented standard.

Because...what is accepted by one persons standards may not be accepted by another person according to their standards... they would have no right to object to another persons standards, if that standard did not live up to their own standard....we would each be responsible for our own individual standards, and we would have no right to judge another persons moral standard.

So for example, say my moral standard in life was to go around killing people just for a laugh ...then no one would be able to object to that moral standard...because we each are the authors of our own morals and beliefs, we have sole copyright...another one would simply have no right to say killing people just for laughs is unacceptable, because that would be the right of the person holding to those beliefs...and since that person is the one who has copyrighted that standard... Any one opposing another would simply have no right to hold to their own standard either... because what another person does with their life would be of no business of another...

A human society could not function in that fashion whatsoever..and is why the proof that absolute moral values must exist.

But they only exist because Absolute Consciousness is the only intelligence at work in the universe.

.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

The story is the dream...that no one is dreaming.

It's true story. However it's not the only true story. The other true story is told from the point of view of each of the myriad components. Novelists and playwrites, good novelists and playwrites, tend to do this. For all we can know there may be countless other true ways to tell 'the story' each of which is as valid as the others.

Another way to write what I wrote is God is infinite.Or dharma is infinite if you prefer.

As a practical way to navigate one's life it may be(and I believe it is) good to believe in transcendent good. However this belief does not license any person to rule upon the rights and wrongs of prostitution. We have reason and kindness which do the latter.

[Nick_A]

We've also learned that the estimated 1.324 billion Hindus in India are all full of shit for taking eternal values seriously.

Among all the 1.324 billion Hindus who take eternal values seriously would that also include followers of these eminent gurus who definitely take their $eternal values$ seriously.

Also, since you now inhabit the rarified realms of the 3rd dimension of thought what's the point of talking to us dribbling idiots? Isn't it time you capitalize on your enlightenment as in these examples:

http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/society/a ... above-west

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5JKzT19xAc

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pix-i ... 141120.htm

Plato’s cave is such that wherever attempts at aligning with objective quality take place there will be an equal effort to secularize and corrupt it.

Also, since you now inhabit the rarified realms of the 3rd dimension of thought what's the point of talking to us dribbling idiots?

Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 417

Often those you call dribbling idiots make a lot of sense. They just lack an important attribute that allows them to put what they know into a human perspective so they can understand what they know. There is nothing wrong with conversing with those who know things. It is only harmful when a person assumes that knowing things results in a human perspective. That is the fastest way of falling victim to the charlatans.

[Nick_A]

So what have we learned from this thread? We've learned that by definition the secularist cannot objectively prostitute themselves since they lack recognition of any eternal values to sell cheaply. They either reject objective values altogether and create their own reality or allow the Great Beast to determine their values. So either way since values change with the tides, there is nothing genuine to prostitute. This is why the secularist cannot discuss the concept of prostitution but must limit themselves to what society subjectively calls prostitutes.

You are right Nick.

Humans cannot function sanely in the world without an absolute eternal moral /value law giver.

Supposing there does exist an individual ''someone'' separate from ''someone'' else..who believes they are truly a separate entity with their own unique brand of what constitutes moral conduct, beliefs and values ...and that only they have personal private copyright over. If that was true then it would be true for every other separate human being....but this would not work, humans could not live by such a fragmented standard.

Because...what is accepted by one persons standards may not be accepted by another person according to their standards... they would have no right to object to another persons standards, if that standard did not live up to their own standard....we would each be responsible for our own individual standards, and we would have no right to judge another persons moral standard.

So for example, say my moral standard in life was to go around killing people just for a laugh ...then no one would be able to object to that moral standard...because we each are the authors of our own morals and beliefs, we have sole copyright...another one would simply have no right to say killing people just for laughs is unacceptable, because that would be the right of the person holding to those beliefs...and since that person is the one who has copyrighted that standard... Any one opposing another would simply have no right to hold to their own standard either... because what another person does with their life would be of no business of another...

A human society could not function in that fashion whatsoever..and is why the proof that absolute moral values must exist.

But they only exist because Absolute Consciousness is the only intelligence at work in the universe.

.

We differ because I appreciate the great universe as a living conscious machine structured on levels of reality one existing within the other. It is a hierarchy of conscious intention. Each cosmos is governed by a lawful blend of consciousness and mechanical laws. So for me the universe is built on a scale of intelligence rather than one entity controlling everything. The interacting scale of intelligence is what enables the universe to serve its purpose through the complimentary processes of involution and evolution. So for me the objective universe is a conscious necessity as opposed to imagination.

[Dontaskme]

So what have we learned from this thread? We've learned that by definition the secularist cannot objectively prostitute themselves since they lack recognition of any eternal values to sell cheaply. They either reject objective values altogether and create their own reality or allow the Great Beast to determine their values. So either way since values change with the tides, there is nothing genuine to prostitute. This is why the secularist cannot discuss the concept of prostitution but must limit themselves to what society subjectively calls prostitutes.

You are right Nick.

Humans cannot function sanely in the world without an absolute eternal moral /value law giver.

Supposing there does exist an individual ''someone'' separate from ''someone'' else..who believes they are truly a separate entity with their own unique brand of what constitutes moral conduct, beliefs and values ...and that only they have personal private copyright over. If that was true then it would be true for every other separate human being....but this would not work, humans could not live by such a fragmented standard.

Because...what is accepted by one persons standards may not be accepted by another person according to their standards... they would have no right to object to another persons standards, if that standard did not live up to their own standard....we would each be responsible for our own individual standards, and we would have no right to judge another persons moral standard.

So for example, say my moral standard in life was to go around killing people just for a laugh ...then no one would be able to object to that moral standard...because we each are the authors of our own morals and beliefs, we have sole copyright...another one would simply have no right to say killing people just for laughs is unacceptable, because that would be the right of the person holding to those beliefs...and since that person is the one who has copyrighted that standard... Any one opposing another would simply have no right to hold to their own standard either... because what another person does with their life would be of no business of another...

A human society could not function in that fashion whatsoever..and is why the proof that absolute moral values must exist.

But they only exist because Absolute Consciousness is the only intelligence at work in the universe.

.

We differ because I appreciate the great universe as a living conscious machine structured on levels of reality one existing within the other. It is a hierarchy of conscious intention. Each cosmos is governed by a lawful blend of consciousness and mechanical laws. So for me the universe is built on a scale of intelligence rather than one entity controlling everything. The interacting scale of intelligence is what enables the universe to serve its purpose through the complimentary processes of involution and evolution. So for me the objective universe is a conscious necessity as opposed to imagination.

Well I guess you are correct in the sense that the idea ''one entity controlling everything'' would lead to an endless yearning to know how one thing could ever know itself?

So yes the objective universe is a conscious necessity else nothing would be known...would it?

Surely the two complimentary processes are equal to each other? ...this is not imagined..

... it's the secondary knowledge aka the ego that is imagined...consciousness can know it does not exist, but it cannot know it does exist.



.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

The story is the dream...that no one is dreaming.

It's true story. However it's not the only true story. The other true story is told from the point of view of each of the myriad components. Novelists and playwrites, good novelists and playwrites, tend to do this. For all we can know there may be countless other true ways to tell 'the story' each of which is as valid as the others.

Another way to write what I wrote is God is infinite.Or dharma is infinite if you prefer.

Many authors appear ..but there is only one reader reading stories no one ever writ.

As a practical way to navigate one's life it may be(and I believe it is) good to believe in transcendent good. However this belief does not license any person to rule upon the rights and wrongs of prostitution. We have reason and kindness which do the latter.

Well of course, it's called conscience...it's generally a good guide.

[Nick_A]

DaM

... it's the secondary knowledge aka the ego that is imagined...consciousness can know it does not exist, but it cannot know it does exist.

Here is where we differ. The ego IMO gets a bad rap in these times because people don't distinguish between the conscious ego and the corrupted ego of Man on earth suffering the human condition.

Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

The human soul of inner unity which is our potential receives from above and gives to below along the scale of being. It is part of the conscious evolutionary process. The problem is that we exist as a plurality so lack inner unity with the potential for a soul which would serve a conscious universal purpose.

To be or not to be is really the question. Is Man's destiny to disappear as a product of imagination or to consciously evolve into inner unity: "to be" so as to serve our lawful conscious purpose of connecting levels of reality?

But if rejection is so powerful that so many are unable even to contemplate the psychological reality of prostitution, how can they be expected to move beyond arguing expressions of duality? Is it possible for people so caught up in rejection to move beyond habitual denial into the willingness to consciously affirm? Of course a minority always will but will the influence of this minority be sufficient to counter the results of habitual conditioned denial. I don't know. I do know that if the results of education have sunk to the degree that even the basic distinction between prostitution as a universal concept and those who society calls prostitutes is denied, our chances are not that good