Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

[Belinda]

Greta, there is study of a sort of religious unity. It's the theory of the Axial age by Karl Jaspers. The study is historically not theologically based.

I'd like to see a structured study that also included nonreligious philosophies, including Taosism, Communism, materialism and so forth. What do all of the systems have in common, if anything? Which are most alike?

The Theory of the Axial Age does include Socrates and Confucius. Communism stemmed from humanism and the Age of Reason.

[Nick_A]

How can this be? In a location where the great majority would sacrifice virtually everything they possess to live in, teenage girls become crazed psychologically wounded animals with no regard for life or human meaning. A committee must be formed at taxpayer expense consisting of highly regarded progressive experts to analyse the situation and determine the politically correct scapegoat to blame for these crimes against nature. The responsible collective must be scorned and condemned by all leading progressives in the cause of peace and love. Demonstrations must be arranged to arouse the people against this collective bringing meaning to the stabbings of these teens. The pointed finger of condemnation must replace the knife.

[Greta]

How can this be? In a location where the great majority would sacrifice virtually everything they possess to live in, teenage girls become crazed psychologically wounded animals with no regard for life or human meaning. A committee must be formed at taxpayer expense consisting of highly regarded progressive experts to analyse the situation and determine the politically correct scapegoat to blame for these crimes against nature. The responsible collective must be scorned and condemned by all leading progressives in the cause of peace and love. Demonstrations must be arranged to arouse the people against this collective bringing meaning to the stabbings of these teens. The pointed finger of condemnation must replace the knife.

The thread would ideally be re-titled, Scapegoats ARE Secular Progressives. I understand that progressives tear the heads off living babies too, and eat the flesh raw and warm.

Still, it's a relief that it's only teenage girls who are becoming crazed psychologically wounded animals. It would be a worry if that was happening to the boys too. It's also just as well that social problems are not at all caused by overpopulation and global economic restructuring. So the problem turned out to be those pesky progressives all along!

Oh, how I pine for the mediaeval era when we were all good theocrats (or dead), basking in the joy, prosperity and civility of the times. Things have gone to hell since the heady days of the Plague and the Inquisition. Ah, great days there were, great days.

[FlashDangerpants]

When I read these accounts I wonder who the secular progressives will blame next...
... They must have a scapegoat to blame....
... the ignorance they share which causes teens to lose any sense of human worth and become crazed attacking things ...
... The best we can do is to create scapegoats and cast blame....

Do you have any sense of the hypocrisy involved in accusing others of the evil of scapegoating ... and then scapegoating them for everything ... and then complaining again about scapegoating?

I have low expectations of you. I think you are severely incompetent in all things. But still you find ways to be more stupid than I expect of you.

That is because you re so intent on scapegoating you don't understand what i wrote.

You aren't my scapegoat for anything, you aren't important enough. I read maybe one in ten of your posts, and usually I don't finish reading even those because your self pity isn't interesting to me and I don't believe you when you boast about getting laid, which is a creepy boast you make far too often by the way.

[Nick_A]

How can this be? In a location where the great majority would sacrifice virtually everything they possess to live in, teenage girls become crazed psychologically wounded animals with no regard for life or human meaning. A committee must be formed at taxpayer expense consisting of highly regarded progressive experts to analyse the situation and determine the politically correct scapegoat to blame for these crimes against nature. The responsible collective must be scorned and condemned by all leading progressives in the cause of peace and love. Demonstrations must be arranged to arouse the people against this collective bringing meaning to the stabbings of these teens. The pointed finger of condemnation must replace the knife.

The thread would ideally be re-titled, Scapegoats ARE Secular Progressives. I understand that progressives tear the heads off living babies too, and eat the flesh raw and warm.

Still, it's a relief that it's only teenage girls who are becoming crazed psychologically wounded animals. It would be a worry if that was happening to the boys too. It's also just as well that social problems are not at all caused by overpopulation and global economic restructuring. So the problem turned out to be those pesky progressives all along!

Oh, how I pine for the mediaeval era when we were all good theocrats (or dead), basking in the joy, prosperity and civility of the times. Things have gone to hell since the heady days of the Plague and the Inquisition. Ah, great days there were, great days.

Yes, the politically correct scapegoats have finally been revealed. They are the theocrats. They must be attacked with pitchforks and flaming torches by the forward looking progressives as the cause of all modern misfortune including the abuse of our beloved youth.

[Greta]

How can this be? In a location where the great majority would sacrifice virtually everything they possess to live in, teenage girls become crazed psychologically wounded animals with no regard for life or human meaning. A committee must be formed at taxpayer expense consisting of highly regarded progressive experts to analyse the situation and determine the politically correct scapegoat to blame for these crimes against nature. The responsible collective must be scorned and condemned by all leading progressives in the cause of peace and love. Demonstrations must be arranged to arouse the people against this collective bringing meaning to the stabbings of these teens. The pointed finger of condemnation must replace the knife.

The thread would ideally be re-titled, Scapegoats ARE Secular Progressives. I understand that progressives tear the heads off living babies too, and eat the flesh raw and warm.

Still, it's a relief that it's only teenage girls who are becoming crazed psychologically wounded animals. It would be a worry if that was happening to the boys too. It's also just as well that social problems are not at all caused by overpopulation and global economic restructuring. So the problem turned out to be those pesky progressives all along!

Oh, how I pine for the mediaeval era when we were all good theocrats (or dead), basking in the joy, prosperity and civility of the times. Things have gone to hell since the heady days of the Plague and the Inquisition. Ah, great days there were, great days.

Yes, the politically correct scapegoats have finally been revealed. They are the theocrats. They must be attacked with pitchforks and flaming torches by the forward looking progressives as the cause of all modern misfortune including the abuse of our beloved youth.

I note that you make light of the Inquisition and church child molestation. I also note more projection from you - you write scores of pages of demonisation of "secular progressives" and then claim to be persecuted.

As Carson Wells asked Anton Chigurh, have you any idea how crazy you are?

[Nick_A]

The thread would ideally be re-titled, Scapegoats ARE Secular Progressives. I understand that progressives tear the heads off living babies too, and eat the flesh raw and warm.

Still, it's a relief that it's only teenage girls who are becoming crazed psychologically wounded animals. It would be a worry if that was happening to the boys too. It's also just as well that social problems are not at all caused by overpopulation and global economic restructuring. So the problem turned out to be those pesky progressives all along!

Oh, how I pine for the mediaeval era when we were all good theocrats (or dead), basking in the joy, prosperity and civility of the times. Things have gone to hell since the heady days of the Plague and the Inquisition. Ah, great days there were, great days.

Yes, the politically correct scapegoats have finally been revealed. They are the theocrats. They must be attacked with pitchforks and flaming torches by the forward looking progressives as the cause of all modern misfortune including the abuse of our beloved youth.

I note that you make light of the Inquisition and church child molestation. I also note more projection from you - you write scores of pages of demonisation of "secular progressives" and then claim to be persecuted.

As Carson Wells asked Anton Chigurh, have you any idea how crazy you are?

Completely missing the point and sadly, you have no idea why. You have been conditioned to ignore the obvious as do the majority of secular progressives. The result is the creation of crazed things compelled to kill. How lovely.

[Greta]

Yes, the politically correct scapegoats have finally been revealed. They are the theocrats. They must be attacked with pitchforks and flaming torches by the forward looking progressives as the cause of all modern misfortune including the abuse of our beloved youth.

I note that you make light of the Inquisition and church child molestation. I also note more projection from you - you write scores of pages of demonisation of "secular progressives" and then claim to be persecuted.

As Carson Wells asked Anton Chigurh, have you any idea how crazy you are?

Completely missing the point and sadly, you have no idea why. You have been conditioned to ignore the obvious as do the majority of secular progressives. The result is the creation of crazed things compelled to kill. How lovely.

Okay, you don't know how crazy you are.

People on any forum you attend will notice that you operate in your own mental echo chamber - the perseveration, constantly repeating the same phrases, increasingly out of touch with the meaning of the words you use, using them for effect rather than communication as would a schizophrenic. Hmm.

For example, amongst humans, it's typical today that almost all "crazed things compelled to kill" are religious, and this has long been the case. You can't just throw words around wildly and start claiming that your ideological enemies are child abusers and killers etc. That would be insanity.

[Nick_A]

I note that you make light of the Inquisition and church child molestation. I also note more projection from you - you write scores of pages of demonisation of "secular progressives" and then claim to be persecuted.

As Carson Wells asked Anton Chigurh, have you any idea how crazy you are?

Completely missing the point and sadly, you have no idea why. You have been conditioned to ignore the obvious as do the majority of secular progressives. The result is the creation of crazed things compelled to kill. How lovely.

Okay, you don't know how crazy you are.

People on any forum you attend will notice that you operate in your own mental echo chamber - the perseveration, constantly repeating the same phrases, increasingly out of touch with the meaning of the words you use, using them for effect rather than communication as would a schizophrenic. Hmm.

For example, amongst humans, it's typical today that almost all "crazed things compelled to kill" are religious, and this has long been the case. You can't just throw words around wildly and start claiming that your ideological enemies are child abusers and killers etc. That would be insanity.

No you still don't get it. what is even more frightening is not one person posted the reality of the situation. All that results is finger pointing and the creation of scapegoats. This is the modern progressive way.

In truth scapegoats aren't the cause, they are an effect. The cause is the human condition and our collective inability to understand it much less admit it and deal with it. The cause is our collective "we.' We prefer to deny it and blame scapegoats. It makes us feel justified.

The result is the creation of crazed things through no fault of their own are deprived of beginning to feel like what it means to be human.

Leo Tolstoy "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."

Much more satisfying to create scapegoats and use dead kids both in body and soul to justify condemnation of these scapegoats. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

This thread has provided more proof for the futility of the secular progressive to be capable of anything other than finger pointing in response to the human condition.

[Arising_uk]

...
This thread has provided more proof for the futility of the secular progressive to be capable of anything other than finger pointing in response to the human condition.

Still got that blindness when it comes to sentences ending with question marks I see Nick_A.

What will you be teaching our kids?

[Greta]

All that results is finger pointing and the creation of scapegoats.

All you need do is stop doing it and the problem will be solved!

[Nick_A]

...
This thread has provided more proof for the futility of the secular progressive to be capable of anything other than finger pointing in response to the human condition.

Still got that blindness when it comes to sentences ending with question marks I see Nick_A.

What will you be teaching our kids?

You keep asking what I would teach. Without an agreement on the aim of education the result is just secular indoctrination. The point is that as of now only a precious few in education are open to the importance of opening the mind to "high matters".

You were once a participant on a discussion concerning an article appearing in the magazine. It raises questions that aren't good for the usual finger pointing. It concludes with:

https://philosophynow.org/issues/110/Ph ... om_of_Ends

Toward a Democratic Education

Again, what this implies, is that the right kind of education is essential to a sound democracy. To be workable in the long term, democracy demands that its citizens embody a specific, and identifiable, set of moral and intellectual virtues. It is thus the educational establishment – not the press – that should be regarded as the ‘Fourth Estate’ of democracy. As we increasingly see, without an educated citizenry, the press will only pander to the citizens’ appetites and sentiments.

But it is not enough to simply laud the value of education, as is often done: the education needed must be one that cultivates those intellectual and moral virtues integral to the democratic ideal – which, again, is not the ideal of individual freedom per se, but of respect for the freedom, and, hence, the person, of others. Democracy entails the belief that such respect, and not the pursuit of appetitive gratification, is the highest expression of individual freedom.

To enact such an educational program would require a major shift away from the technology- and market-centered focus of our modern educational system – a shift in the opposite direction to that in which, sad to say, we have been trending for some time.The problem is that technology, by its very nature, is ethically neutral, and that the culture of consumer-capitalism fills this ethical void with a continual stream of messages equating happiness with self-gratification. The confluence of these two trends – technologism on the one hand, and consumerism on the other – has led to a conception of education that sees its principle purpose to be the imparting of technological skills for success in the marketplace – a marketplace largely driven by appetitive pursuits. If Plato’s analysis is at all sound, this does not bode well for the future of democracy.

What then is needed? Perhaps we can gain a general sense of what’s needed by recalling Plato once again. In his Apology, Plato has Socrates tell the famous story of his (Socrates’) encounter with the Oracle at Delphi. The Oracle’s designation of Socrates as the wisest man in Athens leads him to interrogate its prominent citizens to see if he can find one wiser than he. After interrogating the technicians of Athens, Socrates reports that “they did know many things of which I was ignorant, and in this they certainly were wiser than I was. But I observed that even the good artisans fell into the same error as the poets; because they were good workmen they thought that they also knew all sorts of high matters, and this defect in them overshadowed their wisdom” (Apology, 22d-e, trans. Benjamin Jowett). Our educational system has largely lost sight of what Plato here calls ‘high matters’ – by which he means the disciplined examination of the values that govern private and public life. If the above analysis is sound, the democratic form will not survive such neglect forever. So what is required is an educational program that, beginning in the early years of high school, actively engages students in the practice of value inquiry, with the aim of imparting in them an understanding of the central role of values in guiding conduct in both private and public life. This, in turn, might then serve as the foundation for an extensive examination of the values integral to democracy itself. Only in this way may we have some hope of placing the ‘high matters’ of which Plato speaks into the thinking of the average citizen.

We thus arrive at a conclusion that will seem to some as outlandish as Plato’s seemed to some in his day: For democracy to survive and flourish we must make philosophy – specifically, ethics, or value-centered thinking – the heart of the public school curriculum. The challenge for those who would craft a pedagogical program in support of democracy is to consider how we might best do this.

There are no more "high matters" They have been abandoned in favor of scapegoating and casting blame. Discussing the techniques necessary to once again honor the attraction to "high matters" is serious and simply shouldn't be subjected to the usual petty attacks. There is too much at stake. Concern for "high matters" are now secondary to casting blame and creating snowflakes. If this is what dominates education, why discuss it? Just agree that "yo momma sucks" and let it go at that. Reserve such discussion for those willing to admit the human condition as the source of personal and societal unrest and the foundation for acquiring the humility for opening to the big picture and allowing the intellect to arouse and awaken human emotions. Perhaps many of the young who are now lost souls can become more than crazed things with no respect for life much less objective human meaning and purpose..

[Greta]

I cannot equate the kind of theocracy that you would promote with any kind of democracy.

I'd know what would happen to women's rights under a "democracy" of yours. I expect they would entirely lose control of their lives and bodies, which would be controlled by theocratic men.

[Belinda]

Nick_A wrote:

You keep asking what I would teach. Without an agreement on the aim of education the result is just secular indoctrination. The point is that as of now only a precious few in education are open to the importance of opening the mind to "high matters".

But the aims of education do in fact address what is to be taught. What is to be taught is not nowadays restricted to facts and skills but includes and is based upon attitudes towards ideas, towards physical and health education, towards citizenship and ethics, and towards expressive ability and getting on with others.

The above is my opinion and what I have learned from educationists during my life.
If you yourself were my student I'd be unable to teach you anything until you ceased to be so arrogant in your ignorance.

arrogant
[ar-uh-guh nt]
Spell Syllables
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adjective
1.
making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:
an arrogant public official.
2.
characterized by or proceeding from arrogance, or a sense of superiority, self-importance, or entitlement:
arrogant claims.

[Nick_A]

Greta

You are fixated on your favorite scapegoat: white theocratic men. You demand women’s rights but have no conception of women’s obligations to sustain a free society making women's rights possible

As Dr. Oxenberg wrote in the article:

I would like to begin with a bit of a riddle: How do you turn a democracy into a tyranny?
The answer, as those familiar with Plato’s Republic (380 BCE) will know, is: Do nothing. It will become a tyranny all by itself……………………

………….Various theorists of liberal democracy will have their various answers to these questions.It is not my purpose to explore these answers but to touch upon an issue fundamental to all of them: that for such answers to be effective, citizens must be able to recognize the validity of certain overarching moral truths. In particular, they must be able to intellectually apprehend moral imperatives that derive their legitimacy from something more universal than the individuality of individual interest. Indeed, the specific problem Plato saw in democracy is that, through its emphasis on the supremacy of the individual, it tends to undermine the capacity for recognition of such universal truths in society.
How then does a democracy turn into a tyranny? It’s the epistemology, stupid!..............................

Women as a whole must feel the importance of eternal values over selfish desires to allow ther unique influence to help in preserving the attitude necessary to sustain freedom
Individual rights can only be sustained in the context of eternal values. Without this attitude democracy must devolve into tyranny.

……………….Let us consider Plato’s critique of democracy more closely. As he writes, “In a city under a democracy you would hear that [freedom] is the finest thing it has, and that for this reason it is the only regime worth living in for anyone who is by nature free” (The Republic of Plato, 562b-c, trans. Allan Bloom). A society that exalts individual freedom would seem the diametric opposite of a society under the oppression of a tyranny. But here we encounter a paradox. For if individual freedom is understood as the capacity to exercise one’s will without restraint, the ideal of individual freedom is the ideal of the tyrant as well. Indeed, we might define the tyrannical character precisely as one unwilling to submit to any higher principle than the unrestrained exercise of his or her will. Thus, ironically, democracy shares the same ideal as tyranny, at least insofar as individual freedom is heralded as its highest good.
Plato saw that a society that presents to its citizens no higher ideal than the freedom to satisfy their own private interests, will, by that fact, become a society of aspiring tyrants, competing each with the other for dominance. Eventually, those most skilled at the arts of manipulation and acquisition will come to lord it over everyone else, and the society that most exalted freedom will become the one that is most enslaved……………………..

You live with a misconception that is the backbone of secular progressives. You believe your goals can be acquired naturally by demanding rights. They cannot and as Dr. Oxenberg describes can only result in “those most skilled at the arts of manipulation and acquisition will come to lord it over everyone else, and the society that most exalted freedom will become the one that is most enslaved”

This leads us to the question: What values must inform a democratic citizenry if they are to avoid descent into tyranny? To consider this we will look at Immanuel Kant’s conception of the ideal democratic society, which he calls ‘the Kingdom of Ends’………………..

The Kingdom of Ends

Despite Thomas Jefferson’s celebrated pronouncement that the ideals of democracy are “self-evident” truths, they do not have obvious roots in human nature. Rather, what is most evident in human nature, as Thomas Hobbes most famously pointed out, are the ideals of tyranny: each of us wants what we want and would be happy to have everyone else conform to our wants. Because of this, the appeal of democracy can be somewhat deceptive, since its emphasis upon the sovereignty of the individual and the sanctity of individual freedom can leave the impression that the democratic citizen has no responsibility to anything beyond her own private will. But that is a misimpression. Instead, the democratic form demands that each citizen affirms their responsibility to respect what Kant calls the ‘dignity’ of every other citizen, and recognizes that this responsibility supersedes commitment to their strictly individual interests.
Kant calls the ideal society organized along such lines ‘the Kingdom of Ends’ (see his Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, 1785). In the Kantian Kingdom of Ends, each member is at once the end for whom the society exists, the sovereign who issues the law of respect for each citizen as end-in-themselves, and the subject who dutifully abides by that law. We can immediately see that a society of tyrants, or of those disposed to tyranny, cannot constitute a Kingdom of Ends, since a Kingdom of Ends can only exist where each member willingly affirms the principle that respect for the person of the other must override the demands of private interest.
Kant manages to equate adherence to this principle with the ideal of individual freedom. However, the freedom of which Kant speaks is at a far remove from what is currently understood by that term in popular culture: it is not the freedom to do whatever one wants, but the freedom to do what is right. It is a freedom, thus, fully coincident with a self-chosen morality. That Kant is able to speak of such moral constraints as ‘freedom’ is due to his idealized conception of the rational person, as someone who willingly affirms a duty to do what is right as the highest expression of his own free will.
If we now compare Plato’s take on democracy with Kant’s, we find that their differences lie not so much in their conception of the just society as in their different estimations of the democratic citizen. For Plato, democracy is inherently unstable, since its valorization of individual freedom yields a society in which everyone aspires to tyranny. For Kant, a sound democracy implies a society in which each person recognizes respect for the freedom and dignity of every other person as the highest expression of individual freedom.
At the heart of their disagreement is a different estimation of the moral and intellectual potential of the average person. For Plato, only a moral and intellectual elite – the philosopher-kings – can be expected to rise above the promptings of their appetites to willingly prefer social justice over self-gratification. Kant, on the other hand, envisions, at least potentially, an entire society of such people: an entire society, so to speak, of philosopher-kings.

So here we have it. You are concerned with scapegoating, of casting blame on white theocratic men. You are concerned with women’s rights but deny women’s obligations and the existence of eternal values that define them and are a necessary part of sustaining a free society. You write of personal freedom and Dr. Oxenberg writes of retaining the quality of societal freedom necessary to enable personal freedom.

Just keep arguing over rghts and casting blame on those you believe deny them. I admire the minority capable moving past scapegoating and becoming capable of feeling eternal values and living with voluntary obligations necessary to make a free society and personal rights possible