~ Crypto-Currencies Mark an End to the Nation-State ~

[Bill Wiltrack]

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There are no rules on how or where to spend cryptocurrency coins or tokens.

You can transfer your coins or tokens into a mobile device such as Co-Pay then use the QR code to make purchases if that is what you like.


Again, I cannot stress strongly enough, You can find ALL the information you are looking for on-line. You just have to invest the time & effort.

I'm here to help you. I will always be here. I am reacting to your questions the best way I know how. SOME OF THIS STUFF you must discover yourself.






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Be patient with yourself...





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[EchoesOfTheHorizon]

Sorry, "Labour".

[Arising_uk]

Sorry, "Labour".

Sorry, I wasn't being picky about the language, I meant, I don't understand the relevance of your point?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Holy Shit! Bitcoin reaching a new All Time High today.

Hope all my PhilosophyNow Forum friends got-in when I told ya to - two years ago!







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[FlashDangerpants]

Meanwhile, $280 million worth of ethercoin just got destroyed because some guy called devops199 was allowed to delete the metadata for other people's money.

[Arising_uk]

There are no rules on how or where to spend cryptocurrency coins or tokens.

There's no rules on any currency? Unless of course you are buying illegal items.

You can transfer your coins or tokens into a mobile device such as Co-Pay then use the QR code to make purchases if that is what you like.

At bloody last!

I see that some vendors are accepting bit-coins, I guess they're hoping for appreciation or they've got the sense to sell them straight away for currency they can pay their taxes with and let's hope they're not holding them if there is a run as they would have just undersold their stock.

Again, I cannot stress strongly enough, You can find ALL the information you are looking for on-line. You just have to invest the time & effort.

Really can't be bothered as such things will either become a common currency or not. If they do I'll just be using them the same way I use my debit card. More than likely my nation's( and most nations) central bank will implement a blockchain currency in the end due to all the benefits such things have and that'll be the end for most of the smaller crypto-currencies, other than the illegal users and tax-dodgers. Of course the idea that everyone will just transactionally interact with each other and bypass national currencies is a lovely one for global utopians but the reality after a few crashes and scams will remind people why currencies are way they are.

I'm here to help you. I will always be here. I am reacting to your questions the best way I know how. SOME OF THIS STUFF you must discover yourself.[/size]

Nah! You're here just punting whatever your latest surfing has stirred in you. It used to be unionism, then drugs and despair, then Trump and now it's techno-fantasies. Nothing wrong with that but don't mistake yourself.

[Arising_uk]

Holy Shit! Bitcoin reaching a new All Time High today.

Against what Bill?

Bubbles remember, as I'm really worried you're the kind of investor/trader who will still be holding-out for a return if it drops.

Do you have an exit plan or strategy as to when your bitcoins will have made enough for your dollar investment? If not you seriously need to start thinking about it.

(wtf are my fonts changing?)

[Bill Wiltrack]

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You know me pretty well. I'm STILL into unionism, it's my religion. I like to experiment with altered states & I do have a tenancy towards depression...as do, I assume, most of us here. I learned a lot about myself through my iterations upon this forum in my relationship to individuals who may not be members at this site at this moment. Such as politicians. Rather painful at the time. Now I'm better for it...

Cryptocurrencies & blockchain technology is presently the vehicle I am driving to help me better understand myself & this life = my working philosophical outlook.

Hope you & your budding family are doing well. How is the job market in merry ol' England?





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[EchoesOfTheHorizon]

Relevancy Inherent in my point is, by a absolute default, what backs up the GBP is the sovereignty of the people who issue it. You loose the ability to pay, the countries holding it will still get it out of the defaulting one way or another, much devalued, but more or less fucked.

You get out of this situation when

1) all curriencies everywhere go downhill, with bullshit makebeliebe collective bailouts from each other.
2) your country makes foreign ownership of national currency overseas illegal, and they have a export oriented economy, not import.

As long as the GDP collapses at roughly the same time as everyone else, your good. If it goes downhill by itself, your nation is fucked. You'll see government in a much more totalitarian light raping the people for anything they have, bringing in foreign corporations to restructure local businesses..... anything for more imports. Can your country survive without imports? No, very very much a no there. So the only think ensuring the GBP is the labor of the people, and any concept of rights or freedoms, government protections, etc..... goes out the window in proportion to how utterly fucked the currency is.

The hands of little children are still the best suited for reaching between factory gear machines to remove jammed items. It will be such little hands that will rebuild your currency if it goes to absolute shit on it's own. Nothing special about the U.K. in terms of exports, and the old strategy of sending gunships up African rivers to scare the population into disadvantageous trade agreements isn't going to work in the age of attack helicopters and artillery.... most poor countries can repell such attempts now, having learn the lesson from the last time your country pulled that shit. The people who own your debt own you, the countries who own the currency holdings of your nation owns you and your neighbors. I assure you, the U.K. isn't going to be considered by anyone as being too big or too essential to let fail. World will laugh with absolute glee at the prospect.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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GREAT to see you using larger fonts! Welcome! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!





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[FlashDangerpants]

Relevancy Inherent in my point is, by a absolute default, what backs up the GBP is the sovereignty of the people who issue it. You loose the ability to pay, the countries holding it will still get it out of the defaulting one way or another, much devalued, but more or less fucked.

You get out of this situation when

1) all curriencies everywhere go downhill, with bullshit makebeliebe collective bailouts from each other.
2) your country makes foreign ownership of national currency overseas illegal, and they have a export oriented economy, not import.

Another way to tank your credit is by being stupid enough to have a legally mandated federal debt ceiling and politicians stupid enough to even consider not extending it. This is why the only major developed economy to have come anywhere near a technical default this century is the USA.

As long as the GDP collapses at roughly the same time as everyone else, your good. If it goes downhill by itself, your nation is fucked. You'll see government in a much more totalitarian light raping the people for anything they have, bringing in foreign corporations to restructure local businesses..... anything for more imports. Can your country survive without imports? No, very very much a no there. So the only think ensuring the GBP is the labor of the people, and any concept of rights or freedoms, government protections, etc..... goes out the window in proportion to how utterly fucked the currency is.

If the currency collapses then you automatically get foreign corporations moving in to take advantage of the massive discount that creates to buy our companies. This exact thing happened last year when Softbank bought ARM straight after the pound fell 20%. It's what's supposed to happen.

If GDP takes a nosedive, that necessarily implies that demand is down within the economy and therefore the velocity of money falls which leads to deflation. That's what triggers the printing of money in the form of QE, or maybe helicopter money next time. Either way, the GBP doesn't go into default in such circumstances because much of that cash is simply diverted to the purchase of local sovereign debt. That does cause other problems of course, but it automatically prevents the one you describe.

The people who own your debt own you, the countries who own the currency holdings of your nation owns you and your neighbors. I assure you, the U.K. isn't going to be considered by anyone as being too big or too essential to let fail. World will laugh with absolute glee at the prospect.

That's not how debt works. UK bonds are sold as a contract with a guaranteed coupon of monthly payments. They are both issued and repaid in our own currency. If the pound falls, that doesn't make us insolvent because we pay in pounds not dollars. So the creditors get paid on time in full and have no legal recourse.

Overseas investors own 27% of outstanding UK sovereign debt. The bank of England (courtesy of QE) owns 23% of it. We aren't massively in hock to foreigners.

Your own (I assume you are American btw) situation isn't very much worse you'll be glad to hear. You do have significant debts to China, Japan and Britain, but by far the largest customer of US treasuries is your own social security and disability insurance trust fund.

[Arising_uk]

Relevancy Inherent in my point is, by a absolute default, what backs up the GBP is the sovereignty of the people who issue it. You loose the ability to pay, the countries holding it will still get it out of the defaulting one way or another, much devalued, but more or less fucked. ...

Pretty much what I'm trying to get Bill to understand, it's confidence that keeps a currency running.

You get out of this situation when

1) all curriencies everywhere go downhill, with bullshit makebeliebe collective bailouts from each other.
2) your country makes foreign ownership of national currency overseas illegal, and they have a export oriented economy, not import. ...

This latter one appears impossible as what do you want them to pay your exports with, their currency?

As long as the GDP collapses at roughly the same time as everyone else, your good. If it goes downhill by itself, your nation is fucked. You'll see government in a much more totalitarian light raping the people for anything they have, bringing in foreign corporations to restructure local businesses..... anything for more imports. Can your country survive without imports? No, very very much a no there. So the only think ensuring the GBP is the labor of the people, and any concept of rights or freedoms, government protections, etc..... goes out the window in proportion to how utterly fucked the currency is. ...

Depends, if your currency hits the floor your exports are shit-cheap then it depends how you wish to share out the profits and re-invest.

The hands of little children are still the best suited for reaching between factory gear machines to remove jammed items. ...

Such factories are old-hat and could not compete even with the kids as we have less of them. Technical education, robotisation and automation with a restructuring of the profit sharing would be the way to go.

It will be such little hands that will rebuild your currency if it goes to absolute shit on it's own. ...

It'll be brains that does this.

Nothing special about the U.K. in terms of exports, and the old strategy of sending gunships up African rivers to scare the population into disadvantageous trade agreements isn't going to work in the age of attack helicopters and artillery.... most poor countries can repell such attempts now, having learn the lesson from the last time your country pulled that shit. ...

Well, we still have a large consumer-market that the poorer countries wish to sell into and we could also just drop all tariffs unilaterally to help with cheap imports.

The people who own your debt own you, ...

Then America appears pretty fucked? We can just default on the debt and bugger the consequences. If they wish to invade great, the war effort will bolster the economy. This military/economic model seems to be doing America ok at present.

the countries who own the currency holdings of your nation owns you and your neighbors. ...

But you just said their holdings would be worthless?

I assure you, the U.K. isn't going to be considered by anyone as being too big or too essential to let fail. World will laugh with absolute glee at the prospect.

No idea what this is all about as I was just trying to say that a fiat currency has no tangible assets since gold-standards were given up. I also think the UK is about to go down the pan in a big way what with brexit but as to the laughing with absolute glee, we really don't give too much of a shit about what others think over here and historically, unlike many, adversity appears to bring out the best in us.

[Arising_uk]

GREAT to see you using larger fonts! Welcome! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

You delude yourself as usual.

Oh! I see, my browser is picking up your mess, fixed.

[Arising_uk]

... How is the job market in merry ol' England?

Very slightly better than yours apparently.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

Crypto currencies are basically mined by running a set of algorithms over and over again until you hit a magic number which exists somewhere in a chain of apparently random stuff much like Pi to the nth position. The problem is that it is easy to find the first few coins - but the next one in the chain takes more cycles to find, and the one after that a few more. Until the cycles involved are no longer possible on a normal desktop computer unless you are prepared to wait a long long time and spend a hell of a lot on electricity to get it. Bitcoin hit that stage years ago and most of the mining for it is done on specially designed cryptographic processors. Unlike Pi, there is an end to the chain, one day all the possible bitcoins will have been mined.

I find your whole explanation pretty helpful. I immediately thought that means the value of Bitcoin is always just in a state of going up exponentially, but I guess there are other factors to consider like the number of places actually accepting it. I heard after the SilkRoad 2.0 was taken down, bitcoin drastically dropped in value, though I'm not completely sure.

I guess I just find it pretty absurd that such a direct piece of value exists, without the need of a sort of centralized entity protecting and projecting value onto it. In reality, it's a pretty primitive concept. A while back, my dad was looking something into the topic of bitcoin, and asked me about it, as he isn't the most tech-savvy person who would understand these things. Evidently, I couldn't explain it to him because I didn't understand it either, but now I think I have the basic grasp.

No currency has actual value, all value is imaginary. Even if we went back to the gold standard as some fossilised morons would like us to, the value of gold is imaginary too.

Well, that's pretty correct, but I guess I was mostly talking about it compared to any real economy, which do use things like precious metals. But you actually go on to address that as well so I appreciate the time it took to give that detailed explanation, and there's really nothing else to discuss.