Race versus culture

[Arising_uk]

Civilization was built by the whip. ...

The plough really.

Over essentially our lifetimes the whip went out of use, and there will be consequences. One is an incredible loss for boys. Boys are in the main rambunctious. A certain portion of boys simply cannot be kept in order with attempted shaming and reasoning. While many lament the supposed mental effects a whipping will have on a boy, it ought to be rather obvious that five minutes of crying and an hour pouting is less injurious to a boy compared to the loss of his pre-school and likely most of the years of his elementary education. ...

I don't disagree that shaming is not the way nor that corporeal punishment does not sometimes have a place in the life of boys but it's not in the learning process but in the socialising side.

Considerable evidence also supports the claim that boys learn better from men, and girls from women, but the Anglo education system is in the area of plus 80% women teachers. ...

I remember why this happened, the paedophiles.

Boys organize their social spaces differently, it is inclusive but hierarchical: think of a football team with its captain and fat kid goal keeper, girls however are cliquey and exclusive. Women teachers inevitably create female social spaces where boys have difficulty functioning. The urban classroom has no space for wrestling and roughhousing which is natural to boys, instead it suits girls who are typically more reticent and less physical... I digress. ...

You think they should be roughhousing and wrestling in the classroom? I thought you said you'd whip them for this.

I agree that the loss of rough competitive sports has hampered a few.

You ought to be a smart person if you've been running this forum for ten years. So...

I haven't been running this forum since the goaturder first turned-up and I gave up moderating to respond to him.

Did you try Google for cognitive structures? http://www.ascd.org/publications/books/ ... atter.aspx

Did you try Google Scholar for cognitive structures? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01178747

Oh! mental processes and techniques to learn with.

Did you note this bit? "It is never too late to develop cognitive structures. " - so race not an issue but culture once again.

The whip --

The plough's better.

Civilization was built with the whip. ...

The plough.

As we have already discussed, the discovery of animal training, particularly with the horse, led to the understanding of how we could train ourselves. As Nietzsche put it in Beyond good and evil, "almost everything we call higher culture‘ is based on the spiritualization and intensification of cruelty". ...

Never was much of a cheerful soul Fred.

Blacks have overall not gotten so much of the whip and are proportionately that much less civilizationally advanced. (And that much less neurotic if you want to look at the silver lining.)

By that metric American blacks must be well civilised.

No actually. You can't see what I'm saying in plain English because you can't stop projecting your Nazi straw men, you're locked into an ideological lens where you see Nazis everywhere and can no longer hear what others are even saying. Godwin's law used to be a joke, now it's the first and only argument anyone's got. ...

I rarely use the term but when a spade looks like a spade.

Where you and I differ very sharply in our thinking, to return to something you've stated two times in this discussion, is that while you are a materialist and imperialist (Marxist);

Not so, historical materialist(Marxist), cultural imperialist(think my nations culture the best of a bad lot, so maybe should drop the 'imperial' bit)

my position is the opposite: I believe in an idealist interpretation of history: our history unfolds because of psychological reasons: you might say the Byzantines collapsed because they lost at Manzikert, I would say a malaise had overcome the society and hence they lost at Manzikert. ...

I think them all still in one mode of production and as such agree with you that psychology has a lot to do with the machinations within an aristocratic feudal system.

You expect your Western culture to overrun the world, and every foreigner in your country to conform to your liberal way of living, ...

I don't give a toss what the rest of the world does, think we should stop interfering in their systems and concentrate on getting our nation in order to show it's a materially and healthier system to live by.

I'm willing to live and let live and allow others to have their unique identities and live in their traditional ways.

So am I but I'm also open to importing what works or what doesn't disrupt to much but insistent on also keeping what works.

[Seleucus]

I agree that the loss of rough competitive sports has hampered a few.

Okay, so we have roughly similar views on issues in boy's education.

Considerable evidence also supports the claim that boys learn better from men, and girls from women, but the Anglo education system is in the area of plus 80% women teachers. ...

I remember why this happened, the paedophiles.

I won't disagree that there has been a sickness in male sexual culture, meanwhile, without spending too much time digging into stats, I'm guessing fear of male sexuality is heavily inflamed with hysteria.

Civilization was built by the whip. ...

The plough really.

Agriculture arose about 10,000 BC, horse training about 4000BC. Obviously the rise of civilization occurs with the invention of the whip and not with the plough.

Did you note this bit? "It is never too late to develop cognitive structures. " - so race not an issue but culture once again.

Yes, meanwhile, if mom and dad don't possess linear thinking, say, how is the child going to acquire it? It appears that culture and personality are learned in the main before age 7. This is why many people are fooled into thinking IQ is a function of race genetics, instead it is that Chinese children very often tend to be raised by Chinese moms and dads, and Black children by Black moms and so on.

The whip --

The plough's better.

Civilization was built with the whip. ...

The plough.

I suggest you meditate on this a while. Once we learned how to train ourselves through punishment and reward in the area of 4000 BC, civilization emerged with the ox and the horse under the whip, it didn't emerge six-thousand years earlier with the invention of farming and the plough. This subsequently, and not before, led to the discovery of how to exit from ego/the state by people like the ancient Hindus and Siddhartha.

Blacks have overall not gotten so much of the whip and are proportionately that much less civilizationally advanced. (And that much less neurotic if you want to look at the silver lining.)

By that metric American blacks must be well civilised.

In fact not, while politically incorrect to say it, three centuries of whipping is small potatoes compared to the five-thousand years of the whip Eurasians have subjected themselves to, not to mention crucifixions, scaphism, lingchi, quartering, the drowning pits...

You expect your Western culture to overrun the world, and every foreigner in your country to conform to your liberal way of living, ...

I don't give a toss what the rest of the world does, think we should stop interfering in their systems and concentrate on getting our nation in order to show it's a materially and healthier system to live by.

Some cultures integrate with each other, sometimes one culture is assimilated by another, and sometimes the two remain distinct for literally thousands of years. Integration in the West is largely failing. Western cultural imperialists are making an error in their effort to assimilate their minorities. It's come to my attention recently that anthropologists have already discovered the basic rules of these processes. Fredrik Barth was apparently one of the leading figures in systematizing how it works; I have as yet only glanced at it, but I expect it contains some revealing insights, this is his classic, Ethnic groups and boundaries,

http://www.urbanlab.org/articles/Barth, ... daries.pdf

[Arising_uk]

Agriculture arose about 10,000 BC, horse training about 4000BC. Obviously the rise of civilization occurs with the invention of the whip and not with the plough. ...

Oxen was about 4000BC, the horse about 3000BC. Depending upon what you call 'civilization' it was the drawn plough that produced the explosion of what we'd call civilization.

Yes, meanwhile, if mom and dad don't possess linear thinking, say, how is the child going to acquire it? ...

School.

It appears that culture and personality are learned in the main before age 7. ...

And yet your links say cognitive structures can be taught at any age?

This is why many people are fooled into thinking IQ is a function of race genetics, instead it is that Chinese children very often tend to be raised by Chinese moms and dads, and Black children by Black moms and so on.

So the poor white working-class boys are being failed by their white mothers?

I suggest you meditate on this a while. Once we learned how to train ourselves through punishment and reward in the area of 4000 BC, civilization emerged with the ox and the horse under the whip, ...

There was a 1000 year gap here.

it didn't emerge six-thousand years earlier with the invention of farming and the plough. ...

The hand-held hoes didn't produce the needed surpluses for civilization to take off.

This subsequently, and not before, led to the discovery of how to exit from ego/the state by people like the ancient Hindus and Siddhartha.

No idea what this is meant to mean?

In fact not, while politically incorrect to say it, three centuries of whipping is small potatoes compared to the five-thousand years of the whip Eurasians have subjected themselves to, not to mention crucifixions, scaphism, lingchi, quartering, the drowning pits...

But compared to their white American peers they must have advanced more by your metric?

Some cultures integrate with each other, sometimes one culture is assimilated by another, and sometimes the two remain distinct for literally thousands of years. Integration in the West is largely failing. Western cultural imperialists are making an error in their effort to assimilate their minorities. ...

Most of the 'west' hasn't bothered but in my country for sure the failure was that abomination of an American import, 'multiculturalism'. Now the Americans can do this in their country as it's big enough to accommodate everyone living in their own cultures and they have a uniting dream of individual happiness and the pursuit of the almighty dollar, add to that that they always have a bogeyman to scare them they've made a reasonable fist of 'multiculturalism' but on my tiny island its a mistake is my opinion, pluralism maybe but 'multiculturalism' is a contradiction in terms is my take.

It's come to my attention recently that anthropologists have already discovered the basic rules of these processes. Fredrik Barth was apparently one of the leading figures in systematizing how it works; I have as yet only glanced at it, but I expect it contains some revealing insights, this is his classic, Ethnic groups and boundaries,

I'll take a look, it might give me some extra tips.

[Seleucus]

Agriculture arose about 10,000 BC, horse training about 4000BC. Obviously the rise of civilization occurs with the invention of the whip and not with the plough. ...

Oxen was about 4000BC, the horse about 3000BC. Depending upon what you call 'civilization' it was the drawn plough that produced the explosion of what we'd call civilization.

Good question. Let's use the working definition of ego and the state. Or put another way, reward and punishment culture.

It appears that culture and personality are learned in the main before age 7. ...

And yet your links say cognitive structures can be taught at any age?

Many authorities, and not just the Jesuits, considered it to be quite early, this article puts it at just 3,

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 885.x/full

This is why many people are fooled into thinking IQ is a function of race genetics, instead it is that Chinese children very often tend to be raised by Chinese moms and dads, and Black children by Black moms and so on.

So the poor white working-class boys are being failed by their white mothers?

I expect that's some part of it.

it didn't emerge six-thousand years earlier with the invention of farming and the plough. ...

The hand-held hoes didn't produce the needed surpluses for civilization to take off.

Mmm... yes, that must have been it... the hand-held hoes. But more likely, the agricultural communities that continued in loose confederations much like huntergatherer tribes, for about five-thousand years, are fundamentally different than the Urstaat, with its palace economy of rewards and punishments. Specifically, the first empire, that of Sargon, used donkeys for their chariots.

This subsequently, and not before, led to the discovery of how to exit from ego/the state by people like the ancient Hindus and Siddhartha.

No idea what this is meant to mean?

Ego and the state are the same thing, just different levels of it. Ego is neuroticism created by the double-bind of the ox: either get whipped or pull a plough or cart around all day long. It's lose-lose. Eventually some figured out how to get some 'breathing space' from ego/the state after the misery of civilization become painfully evident.

In fact not, while politically incorrect to say it, three centuries of whipping is small potatoes compared to the five-thousand years of the whip Eurasians have subjected themselves to, not to mention crucifixions, scaphism, lingchi, quartering, the drowning pits...

But compared to their white American peers they must have advanced more by your metric?

The American Whites were keeping pace with their whipping stocks and branding and hanging.

http://www.history.org/foundation/journ ... branks.cfm

A five thousand year head start is a lot of distance to make up...

Some cultures integrate with each other, sometimes one culture is assimilated by another, and sometimes the two remain distinct for literally thousands of years. Integration in the West is largely failing. Western cultural imperialists are making an error in their effort to assimilate their minorities. ...

Most of the 'west' hasn't bothered but in my country for sure the failure was that abomination of an American import, 'multiculturalism'. Now the Americans can do this in their country as it's big enough to accommodate everyone living in their own cultures and they have a uniting dream of individual happiness and the pursuit of the almighty dollar, add to that that they always have a bogeyman to scare them they've made a reasonable fist of 'multiculturalism' but on my tiny island its a mistake is my opinion, pluralism maybe but 'multiculturalism' is a contradiction in terms is my take.

I'm gonna sit down with a gin and tonic sometimes soon and read some Barth and hopefully come back to this point with some stunning insights...

[Belinda]

Seleucus,

A dog, a woman, and a walnut tree,

The more you beat them,

The better they be.

Not.

[Belinda]

Seleucus,

A dog, a woman, and a walnut tree,

The more you beat them,

The better they be.

Not.

[Londoner]

Fredrik Barth was apparently one of the leading figures in systematizing how it works; I have as yet only glanced at it, but I expect it contains some revealing insights, this is his classic, Ethnic groups and boundaries,

This is how you name drop, implying scholarship, yet simultaneously distance your self in case the name doesn't say what you want them to.

[Seleucus]

you
your
you

Oh?

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

Yeah I have to say Seleucus is wrong, blacks are not dumb because they haven't gotten the "whip". From my experience, white parents are lenient and merciful on their children and black women are very violent and masculine and discipline their children excessively. (Females on average being masculine however makes the word "masculine" somewhat meaningless.)

The fact of the matter is, subSaharan blacks are just dumb, because they are dumb.

Now, Northern africans invented wheels and shit, and trigonometry while subsaharans couldn't even invent the wheel. Subsaharans did a couple of contributions to the medical field, and some learning about Metallurgy to make bling-bling (gotta have the bling) that's about it. My source is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _in_Africa

My overlying thesis is that not all blacks are dumb, just subSaharans.

[Londoner]

you
your
you
Oh?

Are you writing a song?

[Seleucus]

subSaharan blacks are just dumb, because they are dumb.

I'm still favoring my Sahara Desert obstructing cultural transmission from Eurasia theory...

white parents are lenient and merciful on their children

Yes, I absolutely agree with you and have said so further up in the discussion, the change in White culture to stop beating and spanking children in the past few decades is going to have significant and unpredictable consequences for the trajectory of the civilization. No doubt signs of what is to come are already evident: http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism ... beta-male/

black women are very violent and masculine and discipline their children excessively.

Of course I agree with you on this point too. Savages are brutal and cruel. There must therefore be a a difference between punishment based on totemism and oracy, and one based on law code and writing. That difference is probably systematicity. But too much orderliness is stultifying and crystallizes a society. Hence this is why Europeans control the world: Europe was never conquered by the Middle-Eastern Empire that started with Sargon and expanded for five-thousand years culminating in the Ottoman Caliphate. Thanks to Alexander, Europe was able to remain free and on the periphery of the Empire and pick and choose what ideas and technologies it wanted meanwhile remaining aloof from the life-force draining unfreedom of Middle-Eastern imperialism. Much the same can be said of Japan's relationship to imperial China, except that civilization arrived so many millennia later, no East Asian society can truly be a contender for hegemon. The West maintained the middle way between the totalizing control of Empire and the wild chaos of Barbarism.

Northern africans invented wheels

The wheel was invented by people who are most closely related to today's Poles and Ukrainians.

trigonometry

Invented by Hellenistic Greeks.

[Seleucus]

you
your
you

you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-message

Honestly, cheesy infomercials or not, Tony Robbins probably puts it much clearer, https://www.tonyrobbins.com/love-relati ... -you-vs-i/

[Arising_uk]

The fact of the matter is, subSaharan blacks are just dumb, because they are dumb. ...

This is no fact of the matter, what it is is a handy way for the racialist to not say "black".

My overlying thesis is that not all blacks are dumb, just subSaharans.

My thesis is that you think "black" and 'sub-Saharan' the same thing.

[Arising_uk]

Yes, I absolutely agree with you and have said so further up in the discussion, the change in White culture to stop beating and spanking children in the past few decades is going to have significant and unpredictable consequences for the trajectory of the civilization. ...

Have no fear then as 'White culture' is showing little sign of this. What is happening is that in a couple of countries this is become the norm.

No doubt signs of what is to come are already evident: http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism ... beta-male/

Dear oh dear, not the 'alpha'/'beta' male nonsense. There is no evidence that this primate works with this model, in fact it's more likely we're like the Bonobo's and should be under a Matriarchy.

Of course I agree with you on this point too. Savages are brutal and cruel. ...

Are the Chinese and Orientals savages? And I thought that you wish to bring back this savagery to 'White culture'.

There must therefore be a a difference between punishment based on totemism and oracy, and one based on law code and writing. That difference is probably systematicity. But too much orderliness is stultifying and crystallizes a society. Hence this is why Europeans control the world: Europe was never conquered by the Middle-Eastern Empire that started with Sargon and expanded for five-thousand years culminating in the Ottoman Caliphate. Thanks to Alexander, Europe was able to remain free and on the periphery of the Empire and pick and choose what ideas and technologies it wanted meanwhile remaining aloof from the life-force draining unfreedom of Middle-Eastern imperialism. Much the same can be said of Japan's relationship to imperial China, except that civilization arrived so many millennia later, no East Asian society can truly be a contender for hegemon. ...

Oh come now, China surely qualifies for such a title.

The West maintained the middle way between the totalizing control of Empire and the wild chaos of Barbarism. ...

Eh!? The Romans, the collapse back to Barbarism after they left?

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

The fact of the matter is, subSaharan blacks are just dumb, because they are dumb. ...

This is no fact of the matter, what it is is a handy way for the racialist to not say "black".

My overlying thesis is that not all blacks are dumb, just subSaharans.

My thesis is that you think "black" and 'sub-Saharan' the same thing.

Nope. Northern africans are blacks, but not dumb.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you and have said so further up in the discussion, the change in White culture to stop beating and spanking children in the past few decades is going to have significant and unpredictable consequences for the trajectory of the civilization. No doubt signs of what is to come are already evident:

True. I believe beatings should be legalized. People are too self-confident, they believe their shit don't stink, and people need to get beat. Modern kids aren't raised right, never learn any respect, so they just go on Facebook treating people with disrespect.
The difference between whites beating their kids and blacks is whites have a nurturing side. After the white spanks their kid they go about their business as normal, eating breakfast. A white says "This hurts me more than it hurts you." But when a black, masculine woman spanks their kid, she humiliates them, and it doesn't feel nurturing it feels sadistic. She says "This hurts you more than it hurts me."

Second spanking is good because it instills a sadomasochistic sense in a person. I know a submale who lusts after women's high heels. But he is in many ways, an alpha male. Many bullies also are deep down, sadomasochists.