The Theory of Evolution - perfect?

[uwot]

Which ever way you look at it, the theological point (of creation stories) is that a god created the world.

I think there is rather more to it than that. As I say, if that was all then why give two stories?

If the bible is not about physics, why give any?

I imagine that everybody assumed the world must have been created by some sort of God; what is interesting is what sort of God and his relationship with mankind. And that is what the rest of the Bible is about.

You don't have to imagine; there are any number of extant creation myths. I only know about Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek in any depth.(You can look up Enuma Elish, Epic of Gilgamesh, various Pyramid texts, Hesiod's Theogeny, the diverse cosmologies of pre-Socratic philosophers and particularly Plato's Timaeus, which medieval philosophers and theologians spent a thousand years trying to reconcile with the bible.) Mythologies, should you ever read one, are not about any god's relationship with mankind, rather they are about some specific god's relationship with the people that believe in them. Seriously, do you have any idea about how many denominations there are, just of Christianity, for example? Given that Palestine is pretty much equidistant from those places, you can attribute the uncertainty to disinterest if you so wish; personally, I think it is because they were grappling with issues that everyone around them was struggling with, and which are still not resolved.

Me: I think we have to ask what the book is for.
Do you mean what it was written for, or how it has been used subsequently?

I mean how it can sensibly be understood. It has very little science and a great deal about the relationship between God and man, so it makes sense to understand it as being about the second.

Well, the difference between science and mythology is that mythology has to make sense.

[PauloL]

The idea of a nation state; money; economic and political systems are all based on unrecognised mythologies

I'd like to remember that the thread is:

THEORY OF EVOLUTION - PERFECT?

Off-topic is as far as talking about Saudi Arabia by now.

Can't you create other threads accordingly as needed and keep this thread clean?

[Belinda]

As I pointed out, Paulol, ideas evolve. So do technologies.

To make this clear, it looks as if the original poster intended to discuss evolution by natural selection as applied to living species. However the title does not specify that we must all limit our thoughts and arguments about evolution.

Paulol, if you are a moderator I will abide by your decision.

[Harbal]

Paulol, if you are a moderator I will abide by your decision.

But if you're not a moderator then get stuffed.

[davidm]

The idea of a nation state; money; economic and political systems are all based on unrecognised mythologies

I'd like to remember that the thread is:

THEORY OF EVOLUTION - PERFECT?

Off-topic is as far as talking about Saudi Arabia by now.

Can't you create other threads accordingly as needed and keep this thread clean?

Why would you want to discuss evolution? You have shown in this thread you don't even know what it is. A textbook example of evolution in action -- cockroaches evolving glucose aversion in the presence of bait traps -- isn't evolution, according to you!

[Londoner]

If the bible is not about physics, why give any?

I think it is because the Bible is (mostly) in the form of a history and so it starts at the beginning.

You don't have to imagine; there are any number of extant creation myths. I only know about Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek in any depth.(You can look up Enuma Elish, Epic of Gilgamesh, various Pyramid texts, Hesiod's Theogeny, the diverse cosmologies of pre-Socratic philosophers and particularly Plato's Timaeus,...

The 'imagine' in my post referred to the 'everybody'. I know there are lots of creation myths involving gods, what I am guessing is that everybody had one, which of course I cannot know for sure.

I am aware of the myths you mention, and also that the two in Genesis are not original. I take that as a further indication that they are not crucial to the Bible; the Bible has simply re-told some existing stories but with a different gloss to reflect the distinctive take of their own religion, for example that there is only one god.

Well, the difference between science and mythology is that mythology has to make sense.

I think mythology is an attempt to make sense of the parts science cannot reach. Science can give an impersonal account of the universe, mythology is about trying to make personal sense of it.

I think the account of the Garden of Eden part of the Bible is a pretty subtle picture of the human condition; that having tasted of knowledge humans are not like the animals in that they are no longer comfortable in their own skins. And also of the problem for God, in that he has created something that he wants to worship him, but do so by free will, which means that he may not do what God wants. (The same paradox you see in Sartre plays.)

Although these ancient people didn't know much physics, I think they were as capable of philosophy and subtle story telling as we are - perhaps more.

[Londoner]

I'd like to remember that the thread is:

THEORY OF EVOLUTION - PERFECT?

Off-topic is as far as talking about Saudi Arabia by now.

Can't you create other threads accordingly as needed and keep this thread clean?

I think the point made in the OP was discussed at length, likewise other criticisms. I'm sure if somebody posts some new idea about what is wrong with Evolution as a theory people will respond.

[davidm]

I tend to believe that the Genesis story represents, deliberately or subconsciously, an ancestral memory of the human transition from hunter-gatherers to an agricultural/urban life style.

[thedoc]

Paulol, if you are a moderator I will abide by your decision.

But if you're not a moderator then get stuffed.

Well said.

[thedoc]

I tend to believe that the Genesis story represents, deliberately or subconsciously, an ancestral memory of the human transition from hunter-gatherers to an agricultural/urban life style.

I believe it goes further back than that, the Genesis story is about humans becoming aware that they are alive and will die.

[PauloL]

A textbook example of evolution in action -- cockroaches evolving glucose aversion in the presence of bait traps -- isn't evolution, according to you!

The example is not from a textbook. Anyway it isn't evolution. It's not my opinion, it's Morgan's and I agree. Are we both wrong?

[Harbal]

Are we both wrong?

It seems like it.

[PauloL]

A textbook example of evolution in action -- cockroaches evolving glucose aversion in the presence of bait traps -- isn't evolution, according to you!

That's an intelligence attack, but it's up to you thinking that exterminating cockroaches that tasted glucose sweet is evolution.

Look at the very words of the authors in the article from your link:

Early in the text:
"One of the hypotheses the researchers had was that these glucose-averse (GA) cockroaches had experienced some kind of change in their chemosensory system."

Later in the text:
"[...] when we introduced baits that coupled glucose with toxic insecticides, the ancient trait, which likely still occurred at very low frequencies, was rapidly selected for."

This is enough contradictory for any educated reader. The change in their chemosensory system was extermination of a cockroaches strain...

People often confuse Genetics, which is taught at Universities, with Darwinism, which isn't.

Evolution means jumping from one species to another one that didn't exist before.

[Greta]

Yes yes, okay. God must have done it. He created all species as is and nothing ever changes because what He creates is holy and immutable.

While we're at it, why not have a flat Earth thread too?

[PauloL]

Greta, you're losing your purity. No one said God created anything. We're only discussing natural, or supernatural, selection.

The example on cockroaches is natural selection, it only selected out cockroaches that tasted glucose sweet. If a new species had arisen, then it would be supernatural selection.