Secular Intolerance

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Arising_uk
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Arising_uk »

Nick_A wrote:...
A secularist cannot be open to the experience of awe and wonder. It is the experience of something greater than ourselves and those who experience it cannot be secularists believing in the Great Beast as their God. ...
Of course they can they just have to look up at a clear night.

I really think this 'secularist' you talk about is a myth as all secularism is is the separation of church and state with the idea that religious freedom can then be practiced. Is this why you dislike it as you wish to impose your religion upon others or is it that you mistakenly conflate atheism with secularism?
Dedicated secular intolerants are as good as dead on the inside. Secular intolerants in secular education strive to crush "this feeling is at the center of true religiousness." Praising such egoistic ignorance and the resulting metaphysical repression it produces is truly an ugly form of psychological child abuse.
But not quite as ugly as the actual physical abuse meted out by the religious to those in their care eh!

And nowhere near as psychologically ugly as the indoctrination you propose to impose upon those in your care as you will be teaching them to know their place will you not?
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

AuK
A secularist cannot be open to the experience of awe and wonder. It is the experience of something greater than ourselves and those who experience it cannot be secularists believing in the Great Beast as their God. ...
Of course they can they just have to look up at a clear night.
What do you feel emotionally?
I really think this 'secularist' you talk about is a myth as all secularism is is the separation of church and state with the idea that religious freedom can then be practiced. Is this why you dislike it as you wish to impose your religion upon others or is it that you mistakenly conflate atheism with secularism?
No. Here is the definition of secularism

From the Merriam Webster Dictionary
Definition of SECULARISM
1. : indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations
Secularism rejects the essence of religion and replaces it with its God the Great Beast. That is a spirit killer.
But not quite as ugly as the actual physical abuse meted out by the religious to those in their care eh!
Abuse is abuse. You reject one form and support another. This may be modern progressive logic but I’m old fashioned and don’t see the sense in it.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Arising_uk »

Nick_A wrote:What do you feel emotionally?
Peace, awe and perspective.
No. Here is the definition of secularism

From the Merriam Webster Dictionary
Definition of SECULARISM
1. : indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations
Except you missed this bit from the Merriam Webster Dictionary

: the belief that religion should not play a role in government, education, or other public parts of society
Secularism rejects the essence of religion and replaces it with its God the Great Beast. That is a spirit killer. ...
No it doesn't, the idea is that it removes religion from politics and education so that it can be practiced freely elsewhere. You wish to indoctrinate others into yours, that is why we have secular systems.
Abuse is abuse. You reject one form and support another. This may be modern progressive logic but I’m old fashioned and don’t see the sense in it.
But your 'great beast' is a myth so no abuse as you are free to practice what you believe just not to foist it upon others. Having said that I'm all for comparative religion and philosophy being taught in schools as it is in much of the UK.
davidm
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by davidm »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:52 pm
The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive. However, I am also not a "Freethinker" in the usual sense of the word because I find that this is in the main an attitude nourished exclusively by an opposition against naive superstition. My feeling is insofar religious as I am imbued with the consciousness of the insuffiency of the human mind to understand deeply the harmony of the Universe which we try to formulate as "laws of nature." It is this consciousness and humility I miss in the Freethinker mentality. Sincerely yours, Albert Einstein.
One of the best descriptions of a spirit killer I've read. They think there is something valuable and conclusive in their freethinking attitudes concerning superstition. It just deprives them of the humility to ever acquire greater understandings that serve the needs of the heart. It wouldn't be so bad if they just inwardly prematurely died but they feel compelled to take down some innocent kids with them. Who wants to die alone?
1. Einstein was a secularist, as has been pointed out to you. (It is worth reiterating the point I have already made several times and Nick has dutifully ignored: "Secularist" in its original meaning merely indicated one who supports the separation of church and state -- something most churches and other religious institutions agree with, since secularism protects their religious liberties and also exempts religious institutions from taxation. The word seems to have been hijacked to mean "atheist," "materialist," or some such, but those are bastardizations of the true meaning of the word.)

2. Einstein would have agreed with precisely nothing that you have written in this and other threads.

3. Myself, and I dare say most "secularists," fully agree with the quote from Einstein; I, myself, have been filled with wonder and awe at the universe since I first saw Saturn in a telescope when I was about 7 years old.

4.You are completely ignorant of the views and the attitudes of the people you are assailing here.

5. It is YOU who are the true spirit killer -- a would-be indoctrinator of children with your nonsensical metaphysics that is utterly alien to the substance and spirit of Einstein.
fooloso4
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by fooloso4 »

Davidm:
Einstein was a secularist, as has been pointed out to you.
The existential question is what one does in the face of cognitive dissonance. As a matter of integrity one sees that he cannot hold two contradictory claims or beliefs and rejects or alters one or the other or both. Nicky, however, simply ignores the facts and/or resorts to magic thinking:

Nick:
The “contradictions" serve to bypass dual reason and further conscious contemplation.
There is for him no cognitive dissonance because he has closed himself off in his own little insular world where facts and contradictions do not matter, where reality is what he imagines in “conscious contemplation”.

Davidm:

Myself, and I dare say most "secularists," fully agree with the quote from Einstein ...

Me too.
You are completely ignorant of the views and the attitudes of the people you are assailing here.
Yup.
It is YOU who are the true spirit killer -- a would-be indoctrinator of children with your nonsensical metaphysics that is utterly alien to the substance and spirit of Einstein.
Yup. Only, he does not think it is indoctrination because he believes what he says is the truth and the children too would know the truth if it were not for the Great Beast. But, of course, as has been pointed out by Belinda and others, he does not want to risk allowing them to find their own way. “Attentiveness” means discovering what consciousness reveals after he plants ideas in their minds. “Attentiveness” means not being attentive to anything but what he wants them to believe.
davidm
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by davidm »

Einstein counseled humbleness and humility before the majesty of the world. Of course, this attitude is directly opposed to the dogmatic and splenetic unjustified certitude of Nick. Kind of ironic, no?
Dubious
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Dubious »

Why not just say that forcing god on anyone especially the young IS a spirit killer. Much worse when whole cultures undergo forced conversion from their ethnic roots. How should a fundamentalist be viewed but as someone who's spirit has predeceased him. What is spirit in the place but the freedom to think and change perspectives.

There is no God bullshit required in any of this being far and away the the biggest piece of a bullshit story.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

F4 describes the consensus of opinion as to my approach. Of course nothing I’ve ever written supports this. I’ve written of the human condition and that Plato describes it perfectly in the cave. We live in imagination attached to the shadows on the wall and the human condition makes hypocrisy essential to live this way. The goal of secular indoctrination is to serve the Great Beast. The goal of human education as described by Plato seeks to turn the soul towards the light so that humanity can become normal as opposed to remaining fallen creatures of reaction
The object of education is to turn the soul towards light. Plato once stated that the main function of education is not to put knowledge into the soul, but to bring out the latent talents in the soul by directing it towards the right objects. This explanation of Plato on education highlights his object of education and guides the readers in proper direction to unfold the ramifications of his theory of education.
Secular intolerance seeks to crush all efforts to inwardly turn towards the light and instead increase worldly desires to the extent that it makes the young hopeless slaves to technology and the shadows on the wall.

The Great Beast will struggle with all its might against any public efforts to awaken – to turn towards the light. The intimidating force of secular intolerance will be one of its chief weapons.

The only saving alternative is the fact that as secularism becomes more an more an expression of obvious lunacy, a sensitive minority will begin to awaken to the absurdity of the human condition and become aware of how to consciously contend with it both in the world and in themselves. Private education based on this awareness will be structured on the means for awakening and turning towards the light and putting facts within a human perspective as opposed to furthering the indoctrination of the Great Beast.
fooloso4
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by fooloso4 »

Nick:
We live in imagination attached to the shadows on the wall and the human condition makes hypocrisy essential to live this way.
Don’t blame your hypocrisy on your ignorance. Hypocrisy is not essential. I believe you are capable of breaking out of the insular world you are trapped in, which is your own private room in the cave, but I do not know if you ever will. The philosophy of many cultures include the notion of philosophical therapy, but you do not read philosophy, you do not think, you look for confirmation.
The goal of human education as described by Plato seeks to turn the soul towards the light …
He describes it that way in the Republic, but if one is to be educated by Plato one must be open to the text, not ignore those parts that don't fit your preconceived notion, not to shut yourself off from it by assuming you already know what he has to teach.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

F4 is a confirmed secular intolerant. This means that values in general including right and wrong are a matter of subjective ethics conditioned by family, friends, and society. Ethics pertains to the outer man. The inner man or what we ARE as opposed to conditioning either doesn’t exist or is unimportant.

The distortions of the great beast survive through secular intolerance or the emotional defense of absurdity. Many fine people have been psychologically harmed by secular religion and its attempt to indoctrinate the outer man. In the process it has hurt the inner man and served as real spirit killers. Spirit killing crushes the inner man as it promotes its conceptions of the outer man. I’ll try and explain this by comparing the words exoteric with esoteric through an article on it.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/esotericis ... oteric.htm
Esoteric means the "inner" (eso-), in the sense of the inner consciousness; the contemplative, mysticalor meditative transpersonal perspective. This is something different from the ordinary everyday understanding of things, and can only be understood by intuition or higher mental or spiritual faculties.

The opposite of Esoteric is Exoteric, which means the "outer" (exo-), i.e. the outer or surface or everyday consciousness. This includes both the scientific-materialistic and the conventional (or literal) religious perspective. As it is based on the everyday understanding of things, and does not require any transformation of consciousness (and indeed considers any such transformation to be harmful), it assumes that the everyday mind alone can understand Reality. (Things are not always that simple though, because in order to do, say, quantum physics one requires a mathematical intuition not shared by many).
Right away there is a problem because a lot of the harm people have endured makes them deny the inner man so they become secular intolerants as a defense mechanism.
Central to the distinction between Esoteric and Exoteric is that of states of consciousness. An Exoteric philosophy or religion as one which is based on the normal waking state of consciousness, or a modified state of consciousness which is still pretty close to the normal waking state. Any aspiration beyond the ordinary state of existence is discouraged. For example, according to the religious person, "God created/loves you just as you are", so who are you to question what God has ordained for you by striving for some higher state of consciousness? While according to the sceptical Materialist, there is no higher state beyond the rational mind anyway (all non-rational states of consciousness being delusionary).

In contrast, all true Esotericism is Gnostic. That is, it is based on Higher Knowledge, or Gnosis, to use the Greek term. Gnosis is a much superior way of understanding than Reason. Reason stumbles around with premises and logical arguments, and uses these in its own way, without regard for higher truth. With reason alone, you can equally prove or disprove any statement. Certainly, used properly, reason is an invaluable aid to understanding and approaching the Truth. But used improperly, it can cunningly justify any statement or argument, no matter how patently false. It is through this negative use of reason that the inferior religious and sceptical materialistic philosophies are able to flourish.
The concept of secular intolerance doesn’t promote secularized religion directed at the indoctrination of the outer man and the corrupt practices sometimes adopted to further these aims. Secular intolerance refers to the emotional attitude which furthers corruption at the expense of the inner man’s need to pursue eros or that which is greater than himself. If anyone is willing to read the rest of this short article and discuss it, I’m game.
fooloso4
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by fooloso4 »

Nick:
This means that values in general including right and wrong are a matter of subjective ethics conditioned by family, friends, and society. Ethics pertains to the outer man. The inner man or what we ARE as opposed to conditioning either doesn’t exist or is unimportant.
Nicky, you do not have knowledge of the good itself and thus according to your own view of ethics you do not have an objective ethics. You may believe there is an objective ethics, but it plays no role in what are your subjective ethical determinations.

I am not interested in your magic thinking you call esoteric knowledge. If this is not what you believed, you would be the first to call such thoughts the result of conditioning and indoctrination.

No matter how often it is pointed out to you, what you fail to see is that it is because of secular tolerance that you are free to openly express your beliefs. The fact that we do not share your beliefs is not secular intolerance but rather, because you are allowed to openly express your beliefs even though they may be in opposition to the religious and nonreligious beliefs of others, it is the essence of secular tolerance.

You are intolerant of tolerance. You cannot tolerate the fact that no one buys into the crap you spew. It is not enough that you can say and do as you like, you want everyone to believe as you do and call us intolerant because we do not. Like the god of Abraham you want us to sacrifice our children to you.
davidm
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by davidm »

fooloso4 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:35 pm
No matter how often it is pointed out to you, what you fail to see is that it is because of secular tolerance that you are free to openly express your beliefs. The fact that we do not share your beliefs is not secular intolerance but rather, because you are allowed to openly express your beliefs even though they may be in opposition to the religious and nonreligious beliefs of others, it is the essence of secular tolerance.

You are intolerant of tolerance. You cannot tolerate the fact that no one buys into the crap you spew. It is not enough that you can say and do as you like, you want everyone to believe as you do and call us intolerant because we do not. Like the god of Abraham you want us to sacrifice our children to you.
That's Nicky in a nutshell. :)

He, and he alone, is the intolerant one here.
Belinda
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote:
Secular intolerance seeks to crush all efforts to inwardly turn towards the light and instead increase worldly desires to the extent that it makes the young hopeless slaves to technology and the shadows on the wall.
But

Religious intolerance seeks to crush all efforts to inwardly turn towards the light and instead increase worldly desires to the extent that it makes the young hopeless slaves to technology and the shadows on the wall.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:30 pm Nick wrote:
Secular intolerance seeks to crush all efforts to inwardly turn towards the light and instead increase worldly desires to the extent that it makes the young hopeless slaves to technology and the shadows on the wall.
But

Religious intolerance seeks to crush all efforts to inwardly turn towards the light and instead increase worldly desires to the extent that it makes the young hopeless slaves to technology and the shadows on the wall.
Yes, if you read the article on exoteric and Esoteric, it is obvious that religious intolerance, secular intolerance, educational intolerance, governmental intolerance, mother-in-law intolerance, etc. are all aspects of the exoteric level of reality which is the domain of the fallen human condition. They will all do what they can to crush doubts to the superiority of whichever institution a child is beginning to question
Walker
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Re: Secular Intolerance

Post by Walker »

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