Has religion been a boon or a bane to mankind?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Sorry to keep confusing you with information, but I don't think we can even make the easy connection between FGM and misogyny.

Er.... FGM is misogyn. Seriously I do not think a culture that practices that can be said to consider women on an equal level of man.
You do not that it's a bit more than just removing some skin, don't you?

I understand by 'misogyny' dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. I do not think the women who send their daughters to be cut are doing it because they dislike their daughters, or have contempt for them. The whole reason FGM is hard to eradicate is that they think they are doing something which is good for their daughters.

I know a fair bit about the subject.

And if they don't do it they are ostracised and considered unclean and not marriageable, which is why mothers might be keen for their daughters to have it done.

[Hobbes' Choice]

"women who send their daughters" = flim flam.

You do realise that it is common for people to participate in their own oppression.

I do not understand.

You quote me saying "women who send their daughters" and comment that it is 'flim flam', presumably meaning 'it doesn't happen'.

Then you ask me if I realise 'it is common for people to participate in their own oppression', presumably meaning 'it does happen'.

I say it is the second. Some women are complicit in a practice that most of the world thinks is bad for women. The rest of the world finds it horrible, but they see it differently.

I do not think putting it down to misogyny was helpful because that implies it is being forced on those women by the men. If we tried to tackle it on that assumption, that the women are only involved if they are being coerced by men then we will be ineffective. The big challenge for teachers is that their message to a young girl at risk amounts to saying that her own mother and aunts and all the people she loves are intending to do her harm. That is why it is so difficult to pitch.

You do not understand, Duh.
Men send their daughters primarily. Women who send their daughters have inherited generations of institutionalised abuse, and have no idea what the loss of their clitoris means, since they have never had an orgasm, or any pleasure from sex.

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Thus the point is that Your phrase "the women who... " is just a diversionary tactic. You might as well say that Jews wanted the holocaust.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Where do you get your information from?

'Camp guards

External camp security was under the authority of an SS unit known as the "Guard Battalion", or Wachbattalion. These guards manned watchtowers and patrolled the perimeter fences of the camp. During an emergency, such as a prisoner uprising, the Guard Battalion could be deployed within the camp. The Guard battalion was organized on military lines with a Battalion Commander, Company and Platoon Leaders, as well as non-commissioned officers and enlisted SS soldiers. Camp guards were either members of the SS-TV or Waffen-SS veterans rotated into the concentration camp system due to wounds in action or for some other administrative reason.

Ironically, contrary to the stereotypical image of the "Concentration Camp Guard", members of the Guard Battalion seldom, if ever, had direct contact with prisoners. '

[vegetariantaxidermy]

"women who send their daughters" = flim flam.

You do realise that it is common for people to participate in their own oppression.

I do not understand.

You quote me saying "women who send their daughters" and comment that it is 'flim flam', presumably meaning 'it doesn't happen'.

Then you ask me if I realise 'it is common for people to participate in their own oppression', presumably meaning 'it does happen'.

I say it is the second. Some women are complicit in a practice that most of the world thinks is bad for women. The rest of the world finds it horrible, but they see it differently.

I do not think putting it down to misogyny was helpful because that implies it is being forced on those women by the men. If we tried to tackle it on that assumption, that the women are only involved if they are being coerced by men then we will be ineffective. The big challenge for teachers is that their message to a young girl at risk amounts to saying that her own mother and aunts and all the people she loves are intending to do her harm. That is why it is so difficult to pitch.

You do not understand, Duh.
Men send their daughters primarily. Women who send their daughters have inherited generations of institutionalised abuse, and have no idea what the loss of their clitoris means, since they have never had an orgasm, or any pleasure from sex.

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Thus the point is that Your phrase "the women who... " is just a diversionary tactic. You might as well say that Jews wanted the holocaust.

Not necessarily.

[Hobbes' Choice]

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Where do you get your information from?

'Camp guards

External camp security was under the authority of an SS unit known as the "Guard Battalion", or Wachbattalion. These guards manned watchtowers and patrolled the perimeter fences of the camp. During an emergency, such as a prisoner uprising, the Guard Battalion could be deployed within the camp. The Guard battalion was organized on military lines with a Battalion Commander, Company and Platoon Leaders, as well as non-commissioned officers and enlisted SS soldiers. Camp guards were either members of the SS-TV or Waffen-SS veterans rotated into the concentration camp system due to wounds in action or for some other administrative reason.

Ironically, contrary to the stereotypical image of the "Concentration Camp Guard", members of the Guard Battalion seldom, if ever, had direct contact with prisoners. '

Trusted Jewish orderlies were appointed guard duties.

[Hobbes' Choice]

I do not understand.

You quote me saying "women who send their daughters" and comment that it is 'flim flam', presumably meaning 'it doesn't happen'.

Then you ask me if I realise 'it is common for people to participate in their own oppression', presumably meaning 'it does happen'.

I say it is the second. Some women are complicit in a practice that most of the world thinks is bad for women. The rest of the world finds it horrible, but they see it differently.

I do not think putting it down to misogyny was helpful because that implies it is being forced on those women by the men. If we tried to tackle it on that assumption, that the women are only involved if they are being coerced by men then we will be ineffective. The big challenge for teachers is that their message to a young girl at risk amounts to saying that her own mother and aunts and all the people she loves are intending to do her harm. That is why it is so difficult to pitch.

You do not understand, Duh.
Men send their daughters primarily. Women who send their daughters have inherited generations of institutionalised abuse, and have no idea what the loss of their clitoris means, since they have never had an orgasm, or any pleasure from sex.

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Thus the point is that Your phrase "the women who... " is just a diversionary tactic. You might as well say that Jews wanted the holocaust.

Not necessarily.

You can have a minor orgasm with the vagina, but basically without a clit you are fucked.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

You do not understand, Duh.
Men send their daughters primarily. Women who send their daughters have inherited generations of institutionalised abuse, and have no idea what the loss of their clitoris means, since they have never had an orgasm, or any pleasure from sex.

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Thus the point is that Your phrase "the women who... " is just a diversionary tactic. You might as well say that Jews wanted the holocaust.

Not necessarily.

You can have a minor orgasm with the vagina, but basically without a clit you are fucked.

That's not what I meant. You don't think they ever had an orgasm before they were circumcised?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Where do you get your information from?

'Camp guards

External camp security was under the authority of an SS unit known as the "Guard Battalion", or Wachbattalion. These guards manned watchtowers and patrolled the perimeter fences of the camp. During an emergency, such as a prisoner uprising, the Guard Battalion could be deployed within the camp. The Guard battalion was organized on military lines with a Battalion Commander, Company and Platoon Leaders, as well as non-commissioned officers and enlisted SS soldiers. Camp guards were either members of the SS-TV or Waffen-SS veterans rotated into the concentration camp system due to wounds in action or for some other administrative reason.

Ironically, contrary to the stereotypical image of the "Concentration Camp Guard", members of the Guard Battalion seldom, if ever, had direct contact with prisoners. '

Trusted Jewish orderlies were appointed guard duties.

I can't find any reference to that. The guards were from the SS. What sites are you frequenting?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Not necessarily.

You can have a minor orgasm with the vagina, but basically without a clit you are fucked.

That's not what I meant. You don't think they ever had an orgasm before they were circumcised?

No, because typically they are mutilated as children.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Where do you get your information from?

'Camp guards

External camp security was under the authority of an SS unit known as the "Guard Battalion", or Wachbattalion. These guards manned watchtowers and patrolled the perimeter fences of the camp. During an emergency, such as a prisoner uprising, the Guard Battalion could be deployed within the camp. The Guard battalion was organized on military lines with a Battalion Commander, Company and Platoon Leaders, as well as non-commissioned officers and enlisted SS soldiers. Camp guards were either members of the SS-TV or Waffen-SS veterans rotated into the concentration camp system due to wounds in action or for some other administrative reason.

Ironically, contrary to the stereotypical image of the "Concentration Camp Guard", members of the Guard Battalion seldom, if ever, had direct contact with prisoners. '

Trusted Jewish orderlies were appointed guard duties.

I can't find any reference to that. The guards were from the SS. What sites are you frequenting?

Jews did guard duty whilst the SS fucked the "new meat", played cards, and drank schnnaps

[vegetariantaxidermy]

You can have a minor orgasm with the vagina, but basically without a clit you are fucked.

That's not what I meant. You don't think they ever had an orgasm before they were circumcised?

No, because typically they are mutilated as children.

Oh. I thought it was around puberty. I try to avoid references to it as much as I can.

[Londoner]

You do not understand, Duh.
Men send their daughters primarily. Women who send their daughters have inherited generations of institutionalised abuse, and have no idea what the loss of their clitoris means, since they have never had an orgasm, or any pleasure from sex.

No, I'm sorry but it is you who doesn't understand. It is not men sending their daughters; as a social practice that is ingrained in the whole community. Regarding the loss of sexual pleasure, they do not regard that as a bad thing. We can hardly pretend to be shocked at that, historically a suspicion of female sexuality isn't something restricted to Africa.

Again, you seem to be arguing two contradictory things; (a) women do not send their daughters, but also (b) they do send their daughters (but this is because they have never had pleasure from sex). I would comment that I do not think that is the reason because even those who do it don't pretend that FGM isn't horrible painful and can lead to problems; just being ignorant of sexual pleasure would not be enough to make them submit their daughters to this.

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Thus the point is that Your phrase "the women who... " is just a diversionary tactic. You might as well say that Jews wanted the holocaust.

Diversion from what? What is it you think I'm denying?

You seem to be unwilling to take in the idea that cultural practices that we consider are bad for women might be supported by women. That just isn't so; on abortion there are plenty of women against it. The harsh treatment of mothers who had illegitimate children was mostly carried out by women. The system of arranged marriages is mostly run by women. Many women voted for Trump! And so on.

I don't regard it as their fault; if I had been born and raised in somewhere like Somalia I would probably think like a Somali. But that goes for both men and women. You seem to think that one sex must be perpetrator and the other the victim. That would be a more comfortable picture, easier to understand, but sadly the reality is not like that; loving mothers honestly think FGM is good.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

You do not understand, Duh.
Men send their daughters primarily. Women who send their daughters have inherited generations of institutionalised abuse, and have no idea what the loss of their clitoris means, since they have never had an orgasm, or any pleasure from sex.

No, I'm sorry but it is you who doesn't understand. It is not men sending their daughters; as a social practice that is ingrained in the whole community. Regarding the loss of sexual pleasure, they do not regard that as a bad thing. We can hardly pretend to be shocked at that, historically a suspicion of female sexuality isn't something restricted to Africa.

Again, you seem to be arguing two contradictory things; (a) women do not send their daughters, but also (b) they do send their daughters (but this is because they have never had pleasure from sex). I would comment that I do not think that is the reason because even those who do it don't pretend that FGM isn't horrible painful and can lead to problems; just being ignorant of sexual pleasure would not be enough to make them submit their daughters to this.

The many of the guards at Austwitz, and other concentration camps, and all the orderlies were Jews.

Thus the point is that Your phrase "the women who... " is just a diversionary tactic. You might as well say that Jews wanted the holocaust.

Diversion from what? What is it you think I'm denying?

You seem to be unwilling to take in the idea that cultural practices that we consider are bad for women might be supported by women. That just isn't so; on abortion there are plenty of women against it. The harsh treatment of mothers who had illegitimate children was mostly carried out by women. The system of arranged marriages is mostly run by women. Many women voted for Trump! And so on.

I don't regard it as their fault; if I had been born and raised in somewhere like Somalia I would probably think like a Somali. But that goes for both men and women. You seem to think that one sex must be perpetrator and the other the victim. That would be a more comfortable picture, easier to understand, but sadly the reality is not like that; loving mothers honestly think FGM is good.

You don't think women can be misogynistic?? They often beat men at it hands down. And didn't I just point out that their daughters would be considered unclean and unmarriageable if they don't get it done?? Which part of that didn't you understand?

[Londoner]

Trusted Jewish orderlies were appointed guard duties.

As 'Kapos' yes, but I would not call them guards. They were still prisoners, still subject to arbitrary execution, but as long as they kept the other prisoners in order, they stayed alive. And we are talking about camps like Auschwitz, where a lot of prisoners were kept alive (just about) as slave labour. The Kapos were usually recruited from amongst the criminal prisoners, so sometimes Jews but not usually.

For what it was like to be a long term prisoner in Auschwitz, I would recommend 'If this is a man' by Primo Levi. The Commandant of Auschwitz (Hoess) also wrote an autobiography while waiting for the Poles to hang him, well worth reading.

[Londoner]

You don't think women can be misogynistic?? They often beat men at it hands down. And didn't I just point out that their daughters would be considered unclean and unmarriageable if they don't get it done?? Which part of that didn't you understand?

As I wrote many posts ago, I understand 'mysogyny' to mean 'dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women'.

It therefore seems inappropriate to say that those who go in for FGM are misogynistic because they do not think they are doing the girls any harm; quite the contrary.

Having a misguided idea of what is beneficial for women is not 'misogyny'.

It is the wrong word.