A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

[Dalek Prime]

Uwot, I like what you said at the end, about people creating narrative.

Thank you, it's very kind of you to say so.

If one takes away the story and stops living within it, one becomes free of one's own expections, and 'failure' becomes a non-issue. We are then free to live our lives without fear that our lives won't stand up to imagined measures.

Personally, I'd rather try and fail, than not have aspirations.

It's not about not having aspirations, it's more about not being at the centre of a story we can't possibly live up to. We need something, or we stagnate, which also is not good. But even in that story lies someone living up to a tragic figure status he imagines for himself; the self-pity person.

[seeds]

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All that being said, again I pose the question to you...

(or anyone else who cares to address the issue)

...that if one can doubt the veracity of an “original sin” (for surely it was a mythological event that never actually occurred), then what does that say about the need for the blood sacrifice of a “savior” to erase that sin?

Does the term "smoke and mirrors" or "theatrics" mean anything to you? God had to put on a show that people could understand...

Doc, it is becoming quite clear to me that you are a very reasonable person and a critical thinker.

Indeed, “smoke and mirrors” and “theatrics” are employed by every religion that was ever created in order to sell their ideas.

In Buddhist terms, “smoke and mirrors” are what compose the various “rafts” (religions) that carry humans across the waters of this earthly life, but will be abandoned at the shore of death.

My often stated parallel to that idea is that religions are the pacifying “teats” for us worldlings to suckle on until we finally experience the ultimate truth of our destiny after crossing that inevitable threshold that awaits us.

But make no mistake about it, whatever that destiny is going to be...

(whether it be the theist’s hopeful vision of eternal life, or the atheist’s nihilistic vision of eternal oblivion)

...it will be the exact same destiny for each of us (sinner or saint, child or adult, theist or atheist), despite what is implied by our earthly religions.

And that is why I mounted a campaign against I.C.s nonsense that is encapsulated in the following quote, especially the last line:

...For there is no other "door" to God but Christ. And if a person won't walk through that door, then he/she will have to find whatever other place to inhabit they wish.

But sadly, I am quite sure that it will not be with God...

He just cannot seem to understand that had he awakened into the arms of Hindu parents in India, or Buddhist parents in Tibet, or head hunting parents in the Amazonian jungles, or died as an infant, then it would be he himself who is on the receiving end of his reasons for why God would be rejecting him.

(Continued in next post)
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[seeds]

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(Continued from prior post)

...the point was that God forgives us being imperfect, and how it was done is less important, but it seems that some people need that extreme act, for it to be believable.

I would go so far as to suggest that God not only forgives all of us for our imperfections, but is hoping that we in turn forgive him for why we are imbued with imperfections in the first place.

In other words, we and the world are “imperfect” by design.

From my own perspective, I view the “imperfections” as playing an essential role in helping to maintain the “believability” of this amazing illusion laid-out before our senses - an illusion that is constructed from the very fabric of God's personal being.

Why?

Because all of the flaws, along with the existence of what we think of as being “evilness” in the world, are precisely what make us (especially the atheists) doubt God’s existence.

To quote myself from a different context:

“...the element of doubt as to God’s existence and our ultimate destiny is exactly the effect that God is after. For it is that “veil of uncertainty” draped across the threshold of death that makes us want to experience life on this side of the veil, on earth, to its fullest.

And that’s the point! That’s what God wants us to do. He wants us to experience and manipulate the constituents of this level of reality to the fullest degree, unhindered by any overriding awareness of a higher level of reality that might in turn detract from the intensity with which we apply ourselves to this level.

And the not knowing of the certainty of eternal life and the super-consciousness that follows death is what produces the inherent resolve in humans, not only to endure immeasurable hardships in order to survive and procreate on earth, but also to accomplish all that can be accomplished while on the planet...”

The ultimate point is that because it is God himself who is accountable for creating the seemingly “imperfect” conditions of our momentary existence on earth, he is not going to punish any of us for the blind choices we made under the terms of those conditions.

In which case, doc, I reiterate that rather than this being a situation of God forgiving us, it is more of a situation of us forgiving God for purposely “keeping us in the dark,” so to speak, for the reasons suggested above.
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[thedoc]

_______

(Continued from prior post)

...the point was that God forgives us being imperfect, and how it was done is less important, but it seems that some people need that extreme act, for it to be believable.

I would go so far as to suggest that God not only forgives all of us for our imperfections, but is hoping that we in turn forgive him for why we are imbued with imperfections in the first place.

In other words, we and the world are “imperfect” by design.

From my own perspective, I view the “imperfections” as playing an essential role in helping to maintain the “believability” of this amazing illusion laid-out before our senses - an illusion that is constructed from the very fabric of God's personal being.

Why?

Because all of the flaws, along with the existence of what we think of as being “evilness” in the world, are precisely what make us (especially the atheists) doubt God’s existence.

To quote myself from a different context:

“...the element of doubt as to God’s existence and our ultimate destiny is exactly the effect that God is after. For it is that “veil of uncertainty” draped across the threshold of death that makes us want to experience life on this side of the veil, on earth, to its fullest.

And that’s the point! That’s what God wants us to do. He wants us to experience and manipulate the constituents of this level of reality to the fullest degree, unhindered by any overriding awareness of a higher level of reality that might in turn detract from the intensity with which we apply ourselves to this level.

And the not knowing of the certainty of eternal life and the super-consciousness that follows death is what produces the inherent resolve in humans, not only to endure immeasurable hardships in order to survive and procreate on earth, but also to accomplish all that can be accomplished while on the planet...”

The ultimate point is that because it is God himself who is accountable for creating the seemingly “imperfect” conditions of our momentary existence on earth, he is not going to punish any of us for the blind choices we made under the terms of those conditions.

In which case, doc, I reiterate that rather than this being a situation of God forgiving us, it is more of a situation of us forgiving God for purposely “keeping us in the dark,” so to speak, for the reasons suggested above.
_______

You certainly bring up some interesting points here, but for now I will only address 2 of them.

I would suggest that the perceived imperfection is a necessary quality that is a result of free will, a being that is created perfect would not have a choice, and the worship of such a being would be empty of value. If a being were created with the ability to act perfectly, there would be no need for God's forgiveness, only creating beings that could not achieve perfection, and can choose to do what is considered as wrong, would create the necessity for a relationship, and the forgiveness that comes with it.

The 2nd point follows a similar line, by "keeping us in the dark" God creates a need for trust that God does exist, and does have our best interest at heart. Having absolute knowledge would then not require the trust, and might lead to a kind of apathy.

I'm sure there are arguments against these positions, and if you would present them I will try to counter them. Just remember that faith in God is based on just that for most, - Faith, not knowledge.

[thedoc]

I don't know what will happen after death, but I know that there are many who will try to assert that they know. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my father, and the conversation came around to Heaven and he said that he had been told that in Heaven we would spend all day praising God and singing God's praises, my father said that if that were true he wasn't sure he wanted to go there. I didn't know what to say at the time, but I knew that was one person's idea of what Heaven would be for them, and I would have to agree with my father, praising God and singing God's praises all day didn't sound like paradise.

[BradburyPound]

I don't know what will happen after death, but I know that there are many who will try to assert that they know. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my father, and the conversation came around to Heaven and he said that he had been told that in Heaven we would spend all day praising God and singing God's praises, my father said that if that were true he wasn't sure he wanted to go there. I didn't know what to say at the time, but I knew that was one person's idea of what Heaven would be for them, and I would have to agree with my father, praising God and singing God's praises all day didn't sound like paradise.

I agree that sitting round praising god would not be good; in fact my idea of Hell. What sort of a god would want to torture his creation in this way?
There is absolutely no warrant to expect or posit any kind of afterlife, and every reason to see death as a complete end.

An afterlife is meaningless. We live our three score and ten learning how to live as an embodied human, and when we die we rot or burn. I can't see what sort of context would make any sort of afterlife meaningful or coherent.

[thedoc]

I agree that sitting round praising god would not be good; in fact my idea of Hell. What sort of a god would want to torture his creation in this way?
There is absolutely no warrant to expect or posit any kind of afterlife, and every reason to see death as a complete end.

An afterlife is meaningless. We live our three score and ten learning how to live as an embodied human, and when we die we rot or burn. I can't see what sort of context would make any sort of afterlife meaningful or coherent.

I think that a lot of people have an incorrect idea of the "afterlife" and also confuse eternity and forever. Forever is a very long time, years and years going on without end. In eternity, no time is passing, you can do anything, or nothing, or everything, all at once.

I have occasionally entertained the thought that, what if eternity, for each individual, is the moment when the brain is dying, and everything is experienced just before the brain stops functioning? This could explain the reports of NDEs that have been presented as proof of the existence of heaven and the afterlife. Individual souls don't exist in eternity forever, but experience eternity at the moment of death.

Don't tell anyone I said that, it could get me stoned, if it was known by the wrong people, and I don't mean stoned with drugs.

[Greta]

I have occasionally entertained the thought that, what if eternity, for each individual, is the moment when the brain is dying, and everything is experienced just before the brain stops functioning? This could explain the reports of NDEs that have been presented as proof of the existence of heaven and the afterlife. Individual souls don't exist in eternity forever, but experience eternity at the moment of death.

Quite a few people these days seem to be pondering the possibility of a subjectively eternal afterlife to explain the reported hours and days of experience during some NDEs, which would have physically occurred within a matter of minutes.

Then again, studies suggest that time dilation during dreams is due to "compression", where the least important information is omitted. This means that a dreamer jumps from significant event to significant event without necessarily including commuting, travelling, or even walking, this squeezing more events into a smaller tract of time.

[BradburyPound]

I agree that sitting round praising god would not be good; in fact my idea of Hell. What sort of a god would want to torture his creation in this way?
There is absolutely no warrant to expect or posit any kind of afterlife, and every reason to see death as a complete end.

An afterlife is meaningless. We live our three score and ten learning how to live as an embodied human, and when we die we rot or burn. I can't see what sort of context would make any sort of afterlife meaningful or coherent.

I think that a lot of people have an incorrect idea of the "afterlife" and also confuse eternity and forever. Forever is a very long time, years and years going on without end. In eternity, no time is passing, you can do anything, or nothing, or everything, all at once.

I have occasionally entertained the thought that, what if eternity, for each individual, is the moment when the brain is dying, and everything is experienced just before the brain stops functioning? This could explain the reports of NDEs that have been presented as proof of the existence of heaven and the afterlife. Individual souls don't exist in eternity forever, but experience eternity at the moment of death.

Don't tell anyone I said that, it could get me stoned, if it was known by the wrong people, and I don't mean stoned with drugs.

I can't see how dying would suspend the laws of nature for an individual. Whilst the rest of reality simply carries on. Neither do I see how this even relates to NDEs. I'd ask you how, or what you mean in more detail, but I'm afraid you might answer.

[BradburyPound]

I have occasionally entertained the thought that, what if eternity, for each individual, is the moment when the brain is dying, and everything is experienced just before the brain stops functioning? This could explain the reports of NDEs that have been presented as proof of the existence of heaven and the afterlife. Individual souls don't exist in eternity forever, but experience eternity at the moment of death.

Quite a few people these days seem to be pondering the possibility of a subjectively eternal afterlife to explain the reported hours and days of experience during some NDEs, which would have physically occurred within a matter of minutes.

Then again, studies suggest that time dilation during dreams is due to "compression", where the least important information is omitted. This means that a dreamer jumps from significant event to significant event without necessarily including commuting, travelling, or even walking, this squeezing more events into a smaller tract of time.

Calling the narrative of dream imagining "time dilation" seem to be a mistake. In a dream there is no actual distance, not actual travel, and so as time persists on its normal course in reality there is no actual dilation of anything.

[Harbal]

I miss Hobbes'

Until he comes back, you should keep an eye on that new comer BradburyPound. He seems very similar to Hobbes, even down to the typos. It will be interesting to see how he and Hobbes get on when Hobbes returns.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I miss Hobbes'

Until he comes back, you should keep an eye on that new comer BradburyPound. He seems very similar to Hobbes, even down to the typos. It will be interesting to see how he and Hobbes get on when Hobbes returns.

You could have put whole quote. And yes, Mr. Pound has hit a few nails in the short time he's been here.

[Harbal]

And yes, Mr. Pound has hit a few nails in the short time he's been here.

Let's call him Bradbury, I think we know him well enough now.

[Greta]

I have occasionally entertained the thought that, what if eternity, for each individual, is the moment when the brain is dying, and everything is experienced just before the brain stops functioning? This could explain the reports of NDEs that have been presented as proof of the existence of heaven and the afterlife. Individual souls don't exist in eternity forever, but experience eternity at the moment of death.

Quite a few people these days seem to be pondering the possibility of a subjectively eternal afterlife to explain the reported hours and days of experience during some NDEs, which would have physically occurred within a matter of minutes.

Then again, studies suggest that time dilation during dreams is due to "compression", where the least important information is omitted. This means that a dreamer jumps from significant event to significant event without necessarily including commuting, travelling, or even walking, this squeezing more events into a smaller tract of time.

Calling the narrative of dream imagining "time dilation" seem to be a mistake. In a dream there is no actual distance, not actual travel, and so as time persists on its normal course in reality there is no actual dilation of anything.

It's a subjective effect. One can experience what feels like hours of time in just a few minutes during a dream.

[thedoc]

Quite a few people these days seem to be pondering the possibility of a subjectively eternal afterlife to explain the reported hours and days of experience during some NDEs, which would have physically occurred within a matter of minutes.

Then again, studies suggest that time dilation during dreams is due to "compression", where the least important information is omitted. This means that a dreamer jumps from significant event to significant event without necessarily including commuting, travelling, or even walking, this squeezing more events into a smaller tract of time.

Calling the narrative of dream imagining "time dilation" seem to be a mistake. In a dream there is no actual distance, not actual travel, and so as time persists on its normal course in reality there is no actual dilation of anything.

It's a subjective effect. One can experience what feels like hours of time in just a few minutes during a dream.

Exactly, a very long time can be experienced subjectively in a very short time, both the NDE and eternity can be experienced in a very short time when the brain is being deprived of oxygen and hallucination are happening.