A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by thedoc »

uwot wrote:
thedoc wrote:...there are many mentions of punishment in Hell in the OT.
It's been a while since I read the OT. Can you give an example?
Here are a few, but there are more than 30,

2 Samuel 22:6King James Version (KJV)
6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Psalm 9:17King James Version (KJV)
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by thedoc »

Harbal wrote:
thedoc wrote: Christians are only required to state their beliefs to others,
Atheists aren't required to do anything and are therefore far less irritating.
That is understandable, since they don't believe in God.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

''Development of Hell Levels in the Middle Ages

The conceptions of hell described by the writers of the second-century and third-century church continued to be embellished throughout the rest of the millennium until the middle ages. Roman Catholic thinkers in the middle ages developed a series of levels in hell, all with no Biblical basis:

Infernus, the place of torment for the unrighteous damned and the demons. This is the place one most often thinks of when one hears the word "Hell."

Purgatory, where the saved souls go to be purged of the temporal effects of their sins

the Limbo of the Infants (Limbus Infantium), a place of perfect, natural, subjective happiness to which those who died before Baptism (and so are denied the Beatific Vision) but who have not committed personal sins (so don't warrant punishment) go.

the Limbo of the Patriarchs (Limbus Patrum), where the righteous who lived before Jesus came to earth went. It is this part of "Hell" that Christ descended into. It no longer exists. '' ( :lol: )

Wow, they really put a lot of thought into this back then. :)
uwot
Posts: 6092
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by uwot »

thedoc wrote:
uwot wrote:
thedoc wrote:...there are many mentions of punishment in Hell in the OT.
It's been a while since I read the OT. Can you give an example?
Here are a few, but there are more than 30...
Well, the old testament is basically the Torah. The Hebrew word is Sheol, which is a place where all the dead go; good and bad. It's a bit of a dreary place, much like the Greek Hades, but there is no mention of punishment, and certainly no fire and brimstone, that only enters the bible with Jesus.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by thedoc »

uwot wrote:
thedoc wrote:
uwot wrote: It's been a while since I read the OT. Can you give an example?
Here are a few, but there are more than 30...
Well, the old testament is basically the Torah. The Hebrew word is Sheol, which is a place where all the dead go; good and bad. It's a bit of a dreary place, much like the Greek Hades, but there is no mention of punishment, and certainly no fire and brimstone, that only enters the bible with Jesus.
I suppose that "The sorrows of hell compassed me about;" are not explicit enough for you, but it was generally understood that there would be punishment and suffering in Hell or "the pit".
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

thedoc wrote:
uwot wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Here are a few, but there are more than 30...
Well, the old testament is basically the Torah. The Hebrew word is Sheol, which is a place where all the dead go; good and bad. It's a bit of a dreary place, much like the Greek Hades, but there is no mention of punishment, and certainly no fire and brimstone, that only enters the bible with Jesus.
I suppose that "The sorrows of hell compassed me about;" are not explicit enough for you, but it was generally understood that there would be punishment and suffering in Hell or "the pit".
''...only one major translation of the Bible, the King James Version, contains the word "hell" in the Old Testament.''

'' "Hell" is neither a Hebrew or a Greek word (both Old and New Testaments were written in those languages), nor did it primarily indicate "a place of torment." Biblical translators actually derived it from a secular German word - spelled hel - meaning nothing more than concealed or covered. The concept of a demon regulated horror-house was indeed derived from that word, but it actually evolved from Teutonic mythology.

Not only is hell an ancient pagan tradition (not at all unique to Christianity), but the ancient Israelites did not understand death that way according to the Holy Scripture. This is why modern Bible translations are completely evicting that word from the Old Testament. Now, why would any Bible translation seek to remove a word unless it did not belong there in the first place? Because this disgusting fable originated from a place other than God's Holy Word - yet was craftily slipped in by the dogma-motivated church of ages past.''
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Lacewing »

thedoc wrote:Christians are not required to impose their beliefs on anyone, but there are other religions that believe they are required to do so. Christians are only required to state their beliefs to others, then it is up to God to influence that other person, and even then it is not imposing the belief, only stating what is believed. You have a rather distorted view of Christianity.
Do I? Aren't there parts of Christianity that are distorted -- even amongst Christians themselves? Are you unable to see how much Christianity is imposed on our culture and our world? It's WAY beyond simply "stating" what is believed.

Please consider this: Do you find it annoying when Bob repeatedly states what he believes over and over and over? How is that appropriate and necessary for him to do? If nobody is asking... and it has already been stated... and anyone can go find more information if they want it. What if a U.S. president being sworn in had to place his hand on Bob's Ouzo manuscript? Or what if U.S. currency was imprinted with "In Ouzo We Trust"? Would you think that a belief system you didn't share was being imposed on you? Would you urge the end of such madness?

Why should one belief system continually "talk over" other perspectives?
User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 12259
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Arising_uk »

Immanuel Can wrote:...
But what precept of Atheism calls for Dawkins to evangelize? Why is an Atheist obligated to care what happens to anyone else, and especially those they regard as enemies? ...
I think you can look to the continuous attacks upon him by the evangelical loons of America since he first published his books 'The Selfish Gene' and 'The Blind Watchmaker' for the source of his behaviour.

I think he gives two stuffs about the fervent believers, he's talking to the rest who may have never heard the word. That and that he thinks teaching theist creationism as 'science' the stuff of nonsense.
Actually, I do. You can look back at the various conversations I've had on this forum, and see that many times I've gone over such evidence. ...
Such as?
But you will also see something else, if you track those conversations: that Atheists simply claim that any evidence is not evidence. And ultimately, there is actually nothing you can show to someone that will cause them to believe if they are just bound and determined not to regard any of it. ...
It's simple, show me your 'God' in the same way you can show me the tree in your back garden or your dog and I'll agree that this is very strong evidence that your tree, dog and 'God' exist.
There's an old saying: "There are none so blind as those who will not see." (John Heywood, 1546)
Then go ahead and show me a 'God' that I can see with mine own eyes.
And I think, in general, Atheism is determined in the heart. It doesn't come from evidence. Even Dawkins himself says he came to his unfaith at the ripe old scientific age of 17. Now, just how well-informed about life, the universe and everything is the average 17-year old? :wink:
Old enough to know a fairy-story when they hear one.

If the theist is so convinced of their position and 'evidence' why do they not wait until children are adults before giving such an explanation to them? Allow them to decide for themselves rather than inculcating such a belief before the age of reason?
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by thedoc »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ''...only one major translation of the Bible, the King James Version, contains the word "hell" in the Old Testament.''
Yes the other translations replaced the word Hell with Sheol, so they did not abandon the concept, just changed to another word. Nice try though.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by thedoc »

Lacewing wrote: Do you find it annoying when Bob repeatedly states what he believes over and over and over?
Since he has posted it several times, I just skim over his posts looking for something different, I don't find it annoying, why should I when he has nothing different to add.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Lacewing »

thedoc wrote:
Lacewing wrote: Do you find it annoying when Bob repeatedly states what he believes over and over and over?
Since he has posted it several times, I just skim over his posts looking for something different, I don't find it annoying, why should I when he has nothing different to add.
You've slinked around the point I was making, and you know it... slithering Doc. (Not very brave and honest.) If theists were ONLY making posts that non-theists could completely avoid, it would be a whole different situation, wouldn't it? You avoided my other questions which, I guess, you couldn't slink around as easily. Games and fantasies... that's really all it amounts to, doesn't it Doc? :)
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by thedoc »

The point of this thread is not whether people are good or bad, but what reason do they have to be one way or the other. It seems that a lot of members are trying to justify their own position by claiming that they are good people, and this is beside the point, it doesn't matter.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by thedoc »

Lacewing wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Lacewing wrote: Do you find it annoying when Bob repeatedly states what he believes over and over and over?
Since he has posted it several times, I just skim over his posts looking for something different, I don't find it annoying, why should I when he has nothing different to add.
You've slinked around the point I was making, and you know it... slithering Doc. (Not very brave and honest.) If theists were ONLY making posts that non-theists could completely avoid, it would be a whole different situation, wouldn't it? You avoided my other questions which, I guess, you couldn't slink around as easily. Games and fantasies... that's really all it amounts to, doesn't it Doc? :)
What part of "I don't find it annoying" don't you understand? That was a direct answer to your question.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Lacewing »

thedoc wrote:The point of this thread is not whether people are good or bad, but what reason do they have to be one way or the other. It seems that a lot of members are trying to justify their own position by claiming that they are good people, and this is beside the point, it doesn't matter.
And that has been answered brilliantly. Theists are incapable of understanding the answers of non-theists. No surprise there.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

Post by Lacewing »

thedoc wrote:
Lacewing wrote:
thedoc wrote: Since he has posted it several times, I just skim over his posts looking for something different, I don't find it annoying, why should I when he has nothing different to add.
You've slinked around the point I was making, and you know it... slithering Doc. (Not very brave and honest.) If theists were ONLY making posts that non-theists could completely avoid, it would be a whole different situation, wouldn't it? You avoided my other questions which, I guess, you couldn't slink around as easily. Games and fantasies... that's really all it amounts to, doesn't it Doc? :)
What part of "I don't find it annoying" don't you understand? That was a direct answer to your question.
What part of you "slinked around the point I was making" and you "avoided my other questions" don't YOU understand?
Post Reply