A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

[Dubious]

You mean you think they're wrong? Or you already know they're right?

If God is listening He must be having one hell of a laugh. He's probably thinking there would be no comedy channel in heaven if He hadn't kicked Adam & Eve out of paradise.

Don't ever start arguing with yourself. The two of you would go nuts and that's when the real comedy begins!

[uwot]

Jesus was not sent to save us, he was sent to scare the living tripe out of us.

Does this mean that Judas is vindicated?

He always was. Judas comes from the Hebrew Yehudah, which means 'praised'. Funny that.

[Harbal]

Jesus was not sent to save us, he was sent to scare the living tripe out of us.

Does this mean that Judas is vindicated?

He always was. Judas comes from the Hebrew Yehudah, which means 'praised'. Funny that.

And they used to be so close. Didn't the Romans once catch them kissing?

[Lacewing]

Mr. Can... are you saying that your god tells you to impose your beliefs on other people or else you'll go to your god's hell? Do you not see what an absolutely insane justification that is for imposing your beliefs on other people who don't share those beliefs?

Beliefs and perspectives guarantee NOTHING about a person. You, yourself, are a good example of that, as you demonstrate far more pride and arrogance than any other theists I know. We're all just people, deciding what to do moment to moment. So why don't you stop pretending that there are groups of people who are righteous or damned. It's just so medieval and absurd.

I would like to hear your answer to this question from your theist perspective:

Why wouldn't "god" be ALL of it?

[uwot]

And the 'fire and damnation' version of 'hell' is a mediaeval invention.

This is from the Myth of Er in Plato's Republic, written in about 380BCE.
"The answer of the other spirit was: 'He comes not hither and will never come. And this,' said he, 'was one of the dreadful sights which we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, and, having completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, when of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom were tyrants; and there were also besides the tyrants private individuals who had been great criminals: they were just, as they fancied, about to return into the upper world, but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any of these incurable sinners or some one who had not been sufficiently punished tried to ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers-by what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell."
It's got all the ingredients: a subterranean punishment facility with demons, fire, bondage, flagellation. I guess that's some people's idea of a good night out, but Medieval philosophy was to a large extent concerned with making Christianity and Platonism compatible.

[uwot]

Judas comes from the Hebrew Yehudah, which means 'praised'. Funny that.

And they used to be so close. Didn't the Romans once catch them kissing?

So I gather. They nailed that poor Jesus bloke to a cross for it, as I remember. Seems a bit strong.

[Dubious]

What's weird about the Jesus phenomena is that in the NT he neither respected nor want to have anything to do with gentiles. He was a devout Jew whose preaching was meant only for the Jews just as the OT was meant ONLY for the Jews. The historical distortions occurred when others interfered.

It amounts to perhaps the greatest reversal in history that what the Jews rejected the gentiles gradually accepted. This is the opposite of what the historical Jesus would have expected. The real betrayal of Jesus was not that of Judas but that of John and Paul. There was no God in this story only very human personalities.

[Immanuel Can]

Ah. Leave the topic.

I recognize the strategy. Atheism is amoral. That's what we were working on.

So I'll give this back to you, since I don't need it.

[Harbal]

The real betrayal of Jesus was not that of Judas but that of John and Paul.

I suspect Ringo and George had a hand in it, too.

[Harbal]

Ah. Leave the topic.

I recognize the strategy. Atheism is amoral. That's what we were working on.

So I'll give this back to you, since I don't need it.

Makes a change from tuna, I suppose.

[thedoc]

Caring is therefore optional, but the punishment for not believing what Mr Can thinks we should, is eternal damnation. What is disgusting about the character of Jesus is that it was him that introduced the threat of eternal suffering into the bible in the first place; there is no mention of it in the old testament.

This is not quite true, there are many mentions of punishment in Hell in the OT. Granted there is one group of Jews who did not and do not believe in the afterlife and punishment in Hell, but they do not represent all Jews.

[Dubious]

Ah. Leave the topic.

I recognize the strategy. Atheism is amoral. That's what we were working on.

So I'll give this back to you, since I don't need it.

Thanks! You just reminded me what I need to put on my grocery list...a lot of natural Vitamin D.

[uwot]

...there are many mentions of punishment in Hell in the OT.

It's been a while since I read the OT. Can you give an example?

[thedoc]

Mr. Can... are you saying that your god tells you to impose your beliefs on other people or else you'll go to your god's hell? Do you not see what an absolutely insane justification that is for imposing your beliefs on other people who don't share those beliefs?

Christians are not required to impose their beliefs on anyone, but there are other religions that believe they are required to do so. Christians are only required to state their beliefs to others, then it is up to God to influence that other person, and even then it is not imposing the belief, only stating what is believed. You have a rather distorted view of Christianity.

[Harbal]

Christians are only required to state their beliefs to others,

Atheists aren't required to do anything and are therefore far less irritating.