Memory and getting old.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

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[Belinda]

TSBU wrote:

Feelings are part of our mental process, they are heuristics, and, when a person feel regrets, that person analyzes (always) what cause such feelings, of course, some people are faster than others, some people can realize more about their mental process, some people are more... introvert? they spend more mind in snalyzing their own mind, and others just move more on feelings, but every person, more or less, change his mind, every person, more or less, is guided by feelings and feel things.

But some heuristics are better than other heuristics. Freud's threefold heuristic " Id, Ego, Superego" is sometimes a useful heuristic, and some people carry too much of a burden of superego to any benefit of man or beast.Where to draw lines regarding the burden of superego is largely why we do moral philosophy. Hobbes Choice's piece was practical and good advice. For somebody with no conscience or with depraved or unreasoning conscience Hobbes Choice's message would give them an excuse for their antisocial lack of self criticism.

[TSBU]

I agree with Hobbes. By all means feel regret. Then learn, then move on.

Now it seems that you can choose when do you want to feel regret. Oh, my son has died, but tomorrow is my boss birthday, I should be happy.

We learn to love our hair shirts, seeing them as evidence that we actually are good, despite our mistakes. I stopped loving my self flagellation because it bored me. I'd learned the lessons but was revisiting out of habit and self indulgence. Not that habitual self indulgences are necessarily bad, but I guess I already had enough of them and needed to unload.

Are you saying that regret show us that we are good despite our mistakes? it seems that the word has a very different meaning for me. In the way you sell it, it seems like your regrets were aestheticall, something for other people, not for you, the part about your selfflagelation (using that as self indlugence?) was quite absurd. So, for you, regrets, what causes them, is a haircut. If you have children, and they die in a car accident, feeling regret is "a haircut".

Ey, don't put everybody at your level.

[TSBU]

But some heuristics are better than other heuristics. Freud's threefold heuristic " Id, Ego, Superego" is sometimes a useful heuristic, and some people carry too much of a burden of superego to any benefit of man or beast.Where to draw lines regarding the burden of superego is largely why we do moral philosophy. Hobbes Choice's piece was practical and good advice. For somebody with no conscience or with depraved or unreasoning conscience Hobbes Choice's message would give them an excuse for their antisocial lack of self criticism.

Yeah, but that's what heuristics have, they move on statistics, if you are searching for something, you don't know where it is yet. And you are right, most of people move on "moral pholosophy", that's why we have slaves, wars, and all of this, and people feel no regrets, because "it's accepted". By the way, it's well known that Freud was a lier and most (or all) of his theorys have been rejected over time, and founded in fake experiments, etc.
Oh, but Hobbes choice piece was practical, it's so comfortable to have slaves, and it hurts if you think that, ey, maybe many people is wrong! nah, that's your big ego... that makes you a bad person. That's... self indulgence? whatever.

[TSBU]

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Many old ladys seem to go to poor countries to fuck young black men, if you want sex. Ey, with no regrets, be like greta and hobbes, they are more comfortable.

[Belinda]

TSBU wrote:

By the way, it's well known that Freud was a lier and most (or all) of his theorys have been rejected over time, and founded in fake experiments, etc.

Babies, bath waters.

My stance is like TSBU's, strong on conscience. We also need 'Je ne Regrette Rien' I suppose but only to ask the question and not to swallow Piaff's rhetoric. She was charismatic and I personally like plain and obscure people who have consciences.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

old.jpg

Many old ladys seem to go to poor countries to fuck young black men, if you want sex. Ey, with no regrets, be like greta and hobbes, they are more comfortable.

Sorry, don't speak whatever language you write in.

[TSBU]

old.jpg

Many old ladys seem to go to poor countries to fuck young black men, if you want sex. Ey, with no regrets, be like greta and hobbes, they are more comfortable.

Sorry, don't speak whatever language you write in.

Unga, Unga, sex, black man, cheap, Africa.

[Greta]

I agree with Hobbes. By all means feel regret. Then learn, then move on.

Now it seems that you can choose when do you want to feel regret. Oh, my son has died, but tomorrow is my boss birthday, I should be happy.

Do you think that is a reasonable response?

A dead child has nothing to do with the kind of regret referred to in this thread - a dead child tends to result in a lifetime of raw loss and grief. This is not at all the same as being pointlessly miserable over our past mistakes.

We learn to love our hair shirts, seeing them as evidence that we actually are good, despite our mistakes. I stopped loving my self flagellation because it bored me. I'd learned the lessons but was revisiting out of habit and self indulgence. Not that habitual self indulgences are necessarily bad, but I guess I already had enough of them and needed to unload.

Are you saying that regret show us that we are good despite our mistakes? it seems that the word has a very different meaning for me. In the way you sell it, it seems like your regrets were aestheticall, something for other people, not for you, the part about your selfflagelation (using that as self indlugence?) was quite absurd. So, for you, regrets, what causes them, is a haircut. If you have children, and they die in a car accident, feeling regret is "a haircut".

Ey, don't put everybody at your level.

I'll tell you what I'm saying - exactly what I said. That's what happened. Don't like it? Tough shit.

What is your point? That we should beat ourselves up for the rest of our lives for every mistake? That we should treat all regrets like dead children? Should we also puff ourselves up with pride for the achievements of a long gone young person whose abilities are now as far beyond us as that young person's childish mistakes? Let it go. That young person is dead. Now you are you, a different person - an old fucker (I am assuming. Whatever, Alfred E Neumann and the flying teapot here are old fuckers [in joke]).

Speaking for myself, I am better in some ways and worse than other than the young person who did naively hurt others, overreacted, underreacted, blundered, missed opportunities etc. I have a different home, different regular contacts, different friends, different family, play different music, do different things with different strengths and weaknesses. I know longer experience the triumphs of that young women so I don't see why I should experience her regrets and sorrows either. I choose not to leave her be and focus on other things, preferably that have nothing to do with me.

People often engage in self-flagellation. There's great peer pressure to be a good team player, so to speak. We internalise the society's values - focused on society, not you - and then react accord to that "programming".

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Now it seems that you can choose when do you want to feel regret. Oh, my son has died, but tomorrow is my boss birthday, I should be happy.

Do you think that is a reasonable response?

I tend to agree with TSBU here. If we could control our feelings then we would never have to feel grief. Regret is just a feeling, like any other. It's not pleasant, so we wouldn't feel it if we could choose not to. Some people are more inclined to it than others. I don't think choice comes into it.
I would say that regret is a very close relative of grief.

[Greta]

Now it seems that you can choose when do you want to feel regret. Oh, my son has died, but tomorrow is my boss birthday, I should be happy.

Do you think that is a reasonable response?

I tend to agree with TSBU here. If we could control our feelings then we would never have to feel grief. Regret is just a feeling, like any other. It's not pleasant, so we wouldn't feel it if we could choose not to. Some people are more inclined to it than others. I don't think choice comes into it.
I would say that regret is a very close relative of grief.

This is all about matters of degree. It's one thing to feel regret, another to dwell on the regrets. There are times when I was nasty, reckless or overly timid and fearful, allowing opportunities to slip by. If I hark back to those times I feel uncomfortable, reliving the bad times. The lessons of those existential errors and failures of impulse control were learned long ago. By the same token, I don't dwell on my triumphs either, basking in the old glow of when I got things right. If I knew then what I knew today I would have responded differently in either case.

My point is that we are manipulated by social pressure and we don't notice our conditioning, our "programming". We wildly overrate the importance of these things. When people are on the verge of death they frequently speak of how trivial their concerns were, how they could have been enjoying and appreciating instead of being miserable. A spot of "recreational melancholy" is cathartic, but it helps to put it in context of a picture that is so much bigger than little humans and their domineering, guilt-inducing eusocial cultures.

[TSBU]

I agree with Hobbes. By all means feel regret. Then learn, then move on.

Now it seems that you can choose when do you want to feel regret. Oh, my son has died, but tomorrow is my boss birthday, I should be happy.

Do you think that is a reasonable response?

A dead child has nothing to do with the kind of regret referred to in this thread - a dead child tends to result in a lifetime of raw loss and grief. This is not at all the same as being pointlessly miserable over our past mistakes.

As far as I know, nobody has said what "kind" of regrets they have. For me, regrets are regrets, the only difference is how big is the feeling, and, yes, it is a reasonable answer, I tried to put a sentimental answer to show how ridiculous is trying to make regret disappear. No matter how big or small it is, the only way to pass through pain is suffering, trying to avoid suffering only makes you suffer more time. If your children die, live with it, if you forgot your keys into the car, live with it, etc, nobody can make regret or sorrow disappear with magic.

I'll tell you what I'm saying - exactly what I said. That's what happened. Don't like it? Tough shit.

So, you stopped feeling regret, trying to have a "good haircut", what a soul. I say what I think, don't like it?

What is your point? That we should beat ourselves up for the rest of our lives for every mistake? That we should treat all regrets like dead children? Should we also puff ourselves up with pride for the achievements of a long gone young person whose abilities are now as far beyond us as that young person's childish mistakes? Let it go. That young person is dead. Now you are you, a different person - an old fucker (I am assuming. Whatever, Alfred E Neumann and the flying teapot here are old fuckers [in joke]).

No, my point is live with it... intil it disappear. It always happens when you feel that you've learnt something. The bigger the mistake, the bigger the lesson. If you have big regrets, you'll find your mistakes in your soul (What have I done, why are my sons dead?) and all your life is going to be rearranged,you can't escape the process, and, in this process, you are going to accept as what you can do, less than before (cause regret is the opposite of proud), if it is a small regret, you'll change less. For example, if police stops you because you were driving fast, you'll think about it a couple of weeks and you'll go slow for now on, but you are not going to rearrange your own life till the end. Mistakes, and ... what's the opposite of mistake, rights? whatever, they make us feel that way if we accept responsabilities. A father accept protecting his children, and he is going to feel regret no matter what, if they die. It's going to be always his fault for him. Now, it seems that the opening shows that he accept the responsability of "not getting old". Well, he can try to avoid his pain, or he can reach a point when he forgot his responsability to stay young. (And I don't know, I don't know him, this is just an example about a possinbility), but that won't happen if he doesn't feel pain, nobody can cut up the process, nobody is a robot. Escaping emotions is bad. And, of course, leting go, as a rule, is escapism. If you lose your keys, and you escape, you'll keep losing them.

Speaking for myself, I am better in some ways and worse than other than the young person who did naively hurt others, overreacted, underreacted, blundered, missed opportunities etc. I have a different home, different regular contacts, different friends, different family, play different music, do different things with different strengths and weaknesses. I know longer experience the triumphs of that young women so I don't see why I should experience her regrets and sorrows either. I choose not to leave her be and focus on other things, preferably that have nothing to do with me.

I killed that man, but that was another life. If you've learnt, it's ok, if you doesn't, you'll repeat. If you accept that fail, let's hope that you make pain for yourself and not others. I don't think so.

People often engage in self-flagellation. There's great peer pressure to be a good team player, so to speak. We internalise the society's values - focused on society, not you - and then react accord to that "programming".

People NEVER hurt themselves because they like to do it, nobody wants to suffer (not masoquists, etc). Ans yes, there is mind crap everywhere. But suffering in life is something that can't be escaped, nobody lives in a perpetual orgasm, if a person suffer trying to follow monkey rules, well, maybe that suffering show him that money rules are wrong, and having slaves is sa bad idea, even though everybody (with money enough) tend to do it.

[Belinda]

I agree with Greta for the reasons that she gives.Greta has obviously learned or fortune has favoured her.

Regrets and self satisfaction are needed if we are to learn from mistakes and triumphs. Is there such a person who has experienced nothing but triumphs? I imagine that such a person would be young and untried and still to experience regrets.

The famous Ugly Duckling did have a preponderance of failure because of ineradicable features of who he was. Luckily for him he found his proper metier which was the community of swans. Some ugly ducklings never succeed. Those ugly ducklings who never succeed can find solace in religion, or in enlightened societies can be accepted and appreciated for the qualities that they are stuck with for life.

Recent trends in free and democratic countries have been towards normalising those persons who are trapped in who they are. I refer to those who have traditionally been marginalised of whom the latest to be supported by political correctness are autistic people.

A lot of the posts have been about self indulgent ruminating over past triumphs and failures. Get rid of those unreasoning ruminations and if I have not learned from my past I should consciously control how often I allow myself to be sentimental.

[Greta]

I tried to put a sentimental answer to show how ridiculous is trying to make regret disappear.

You are implying that we have no mental or emotional control. Never should we come to a deeper understanding of the nature of our mistakes.

According to you there is no growth nor the means to contextualise coming with maturity. No chance to put relatively small things that seemed huge in the heat of the moment into proportion. No gaining of wisdom. No, just more dead children strawmen.

Escaping emotions is bad. And, of course, leting go, as a rule, is escapism. If you lose your keys, and you escape, you'll keep losing them.

No one's talked about escaping emotions but you. Once the lesson is learned and you've emoted sufficiently then I think it is neither psychopathic nor inhuman to forgive your young self and move on.

People often engage in self-flagellation. There's great peer pressure to be a good team player, so to speak. We internalise the society's values - focused on society, not you - and then react accord to that "programming".

People NEVER hurt themselves because they like to do it ...

People certainly can wallow. They can be self indulgent. Masochistic tendencies. Guilt. Self hatred. All very common. That's the kind of damage caused by social pressure.

That's why it's happiness-promoting IMO to regularly step back from other humans for a while to be grounded in actual reality - nature and the cosmos - as a respite from abstracted mess of human relations and the constant attempts of people to make one feel inadequate (noting that citizens who feel inadequate try harder).

I recognise the efficacy of the Guilt Game, but these days I decline to consciously participate.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I tried to put a sentimental answer to show how ridiculous is trying to make regret disappear.

You are implying that we have no mental or emotional control. Never should we come to a deeper understanding of the nature of our mistakes.

According to you there is no growth nor the means to contextualise coming with maturity. No chance to put relatively small things that seemed huge in the heat of the moment into proportion. No gaining of wisdom. No, just more dead children strawmen.

Escaping emotions is bad. And, of course, leting go, as a rule, is escapism. If you lose your keys, and you escape, you'll keep losing them.

No one's talked about escaping emotions but you. Once the lesson is learned and you've emoted sufficiently then I think it is neither psychopathic nor inhuman to forgive your young self and move on.

People often engage in self-flagellation. There's great peer pressure to be a good team player, so to speak. We internalise the society's values - focused on society, not you - and then react accord to that "programming".

People NEVER hurt themselves because they like to do it ...

People certainly can wallow. They can be self indulgent. Masochistic tendencies. Guilt. Self hatred. All very common. That's the kind of damage caused by social pressure.

That's why it's happiness-promoting IMO to regularly step back from other humans for a while to be grounded in actual reality - nature and the cosmos - as a respite from abstracted mess of human relations and the constant attempts of people to make one feel inadequate (noting that citizens who feel inadequate try harder).

I recognise the efficacy of the Guilt Game, but these days I decline to consciously participate.

What it boils down to is the 'free-will versus no free-will' argument. No one really knows whether we have free will or not.