Fighting for the ‘Soul of France,’ More Towns Ban a Bathing Suit: The Burkini

[Terrapin Station]

The problem with burkinis is that they symbolise and signal that the social status of women is inferior to that of men.

The problem with that is that there are no facts about what things symbolise/signal/mean. Meaning, symbolization, etc. are subjective. They depend on how particular individuals think about the thing in question. X only means M just in case S thinks about x in M way. And then x only means M to S.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The problem with burkinis is that they symbolise and signal that the social status of women is inferior to that of men.

The problem with that is that there are no facts about what things symbolise/signal/mean. Meaning, symbolization, etc. are subjective. They depend on how particular individuals think about the thing in question. X only means M just in case S thinks about x in M way. And then x only means M to S.

It says a lot about how radical they are, how much they don't want to assimilate, and how much contempt they have for secular values. It's more of a political statement than anything, or to cover up the bruises from the beatings their owners (sorry, husbands) have given them. Women didn't go around covered up in Iraq, or any of the ME countries when they were relatively secular. There's nothing in the koran about covering up; just to dress 'modestly'. Even muslim scholars say that women should follow the dress customs of the country they are living in. It's extremely bad manners not to.

''The Obedient Wives Club (OWC) is an international Islamic faith based organization which claims to promote harmonious families by teaching wives how to be submissive to their husbands.'' FFS. Frankly, I don't think any males have a right weighing in on the argument, especially not PC twattish ones. They don't have a clue what an affront it is to free, secular women who have fought hard for equal rights, to be confronted with these nut-jobs who still live in the Middle Ages. 'Tolerance' my aunt fanny's backside.

[Terrapin Station]

The problem with burkinis is that they symbolise and signal that the social status of women is inferior to that of men.

The problem with that is that there are no facts about what things symbolise/signal/mean. Meaning, symbolization, etc. are subjective. They depend on how particular individuals think about the thing in question. X only means M just in case S thinks about x in M way. And then x only means M to S.

It says a lot about how radical they are, how much they don't want to assimilate, and how much contempt they have for secular values. It's more of a political statement than anything, or to cover up the bruises from the beatings their owners (sorry, husbands) have given them. Women didn't go around covered up in Iraq, or any of the ME countries when they were relatively secular. There's nothing in the koran about covering up; just to dress 'modestly'. Even muslim scholars say that women should follow the dress customs of the country they are living in. It's extremely bad manners not to.

''The Obedient Wives Club (OWC) is an international Islamic faith based organization which claims to promote harmonious families by teaching wives how to be submissive to their husbands.'' FFS. Frankly, I don't think any males have a right weighing in on the argument, especially not PC twattish ones. They don't have a clue what an affront it is to free, secular women who have fought hard for equal rights, to be confronted with these nut-jobs who still live in the Middle Ages. 'Tolerance' my aunt fanny's backside.

Your comment doesn't seem to have anything to do with my comment that you quoted.

[Kayla]

What a defensive post. Racist too. No, I'm not American and I'm a progressive liberal. However, I am not blindly and reflexively liberal, so I cannot ignore the obvious conflict of interest between two competing goods - the good of cultural tolerance and the good of women's rights. I choose to favour women's rights and you choose to favour cultural tolerance.

you are in favor of men telling women what to wear and what not to wear

you do not favor women's rights

i mean, by definition

[Kayla]

i am curious how many of the people ranting and raving against the burkini ever actually discussed the matter with a burkini wearing muslim woman

[vegetariantaxidermy]

i am curious how many of the people ranting and raving against the burkini ever actually discussed the matter with a burkini wearing muslim woman

That's hardly the point. I wouldn't ask someone wearing an SS uniform how he 'feels' about wearing it either.

[Kayla]

i am curious how many of the people ranting and raving against the burkini ever actually discussed the matter with a burkini wearing muslim woman

That's hardly the point. I wouldn't ask someone wearing an SS uniform how he 'feels' about wearing it either.

you have violated Godwin's law and automatically lose this argument

burkini = SS uniform!?

maybe there is something to the whole chemtrail thing, people are seriously becoming more and more stupid

[vegetariantaxidermy]

i am curious how many of the people ranting and raving against the burkini ever actually discussed the matter with a burkini wearing muslim woman

That's hardly the point. I wouldn't ask someone wearing an SS uniform how he 'feels' about wearing it either.

you have violated Godwin's law and automatically lose this argument

burkini = SS uniform!?

maybe there is something to the whole chemtrail thing, people are seriously becoming more and more stupid

Get stuffed. It's a perfectly apt analogy. You have no reading comprehension. BTW, were you vehemently opposed to the US rape of Iraq? If not, then shut the fuck up. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theories.
ps 'Godwin's Law' isn't an actual law.

[Greta]

What a defensive post. Racist too. No, I'm not American and I'm a progressive liberal. However, I am not blindly and reflexively liberal, so I cannot ignore the obvious conflict of interest between two competing goods - the good of cultural tolerance and the good of women's rights. I choose to favour women's rights and you choose to favour cultural tolerance.

you are in favor of men telling women what to wear and what not to wear

you do not favor women's rights

i mean, by definition

Are you really going to waste everyone's time pretending that you don't understand the coercion involved between Islamic men and women? I hate it when people carry on like lawyers (or yobbos or saints) on philosophy forums.

Why not just accept that you intrinsically favour cultural tolerance over women's rights? That does not make you wrong any more than my favouring of women's rights over cultural tolerance makes me wrong. This discussion just shows where our sympathies lie in a matter where there is a conflict of rival goods.

[Belinda]

i am curious how many of the people ranting and raving against the burkini ever actually discussed the matter with a burkini wearing muslim woman

True, first hand evidence is always the best. However one burkini wearer's testimony is not a proper opinion survey.


Even a large enough survey of burkini wearers' opinions would not elicit enough evidence as to if or how much women who wear burkinis have oppressive menfolk.

[Hobbes' Choice]

What a defensive post. Racist too. No, I'm not American and I'm a progressive liberal. However, I am not blindly and reflexively liberal, so I cannot ignore the obvious conflict of interest between two competing goods - the good of cultural tolerance and the good of women's rights. I choose to favour women's rights and you choose to favour cultural tolerance.

you are in favor of men telling women what to wear and what not to wear

you do not favor women's rights

i mean, by definition

Are you really going to waste everyone's time pretending that you don't understand the coercion involved between Islamic men and women? I hate it when people carry on like lawyers (or yobbos or saints) on philosophy forums. .

Actually you do not either.
Most of what we have is second hand shite from the media, and I have heard arguments on both sides.

The only way forwards is to give freedom to those who want to choose; not impose dress codes that fly against personal freedoms for those that want to dress the way they see fit.
The law should act against compulsion, not be a compulsion.

[Belinda]

Hobbes'Choice wrote;

Why is this carb legal?

With reference to a Roman Catholic nun photo.

French people have reason to be afraid of violent Islamists. There is no reason to be afraid of violent Roman Catholics, as there is no politicisation attached to RC. But some so-called Muslims are political so-called Muslims and some of those are violent men.

Some Muslims demonstrably feel apart from majority French feeling and mores, and burkinis are an obvious statement of apartness. French people perceive culturally segregated Muslims to be providing tacit moral support for Islamism, but French people don't perceive nuns to be any sort of threat.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Hobbes'Choice wrote;

Why is this carb legal?

With reference to a Roman Catholic nun photo.

French people have reason to be afraid of violent Islamists. There is no reason to be afraid of violent Roman Catholics, as there is no politicisation attached to RC. But some so-called Muslims are political so-called Muslims and some of those are violent men.

Some Muslims demonstrably feel apart from majority French feeling and mores, and burkinis are an obvious statement of apartness. French people perceive culturally segregated Muslims to be providing tacit moral support for Islamism, but French people don't perceive nuns to be any sort of threat.

How is a woman dressed like a nun a threat?

Yes the French have a reason to be scared of Islam because they have systematically oppressed them for over a 100 years, invaded their lands, occupied their territories and are currently bombing the shit out of their homes in Syria.
I do not see how further oppression going to help.
What is so scary about women?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

That's a good reason for them to blow up ordinary people going about their business. It just surprises me that the French are being so targeted. Surely the yanks are the biggest criminals on the block, and have done the most harm to muslims, so why not them?
The muslim population in France is so huge that they've doubtless been blowing up fellow muslims too. And women can be just as scary as men.
The PC are simply beyond my comprehension. They are so choosy about who they want to be SJWs for. It seems muslims are simply their latest 'flavour of the month' cause.

[Belinda]

Hobbes' Choice, please note that what I actually wrote was:

but French people don't perceive nuns to be any sort of threat.

European supremacy and imperialism is not a reason to be helpless with guilt and remorse. It's true that Europeans need to stop manufacturing and exporting weapons and it's also true that Europeans need to defend ourselves so that we don't become the victims of victims.

The case is clear that France needs to defend itself against Islamist violence with its own borders. What else would you have?