The Fundamental Problem of Socialism

[henry quirk]

Example: I write on a pece of paper I bought, using a typewriter I bought, using words found in the public sphere (which I've paid for by way of the effort to learn them).

The end result is my orginal work, using resources I transacted for.

Tell me: what do I owe any one?


Example: I change the oil in my car using five quarts of oil I bought, a filter I bought, and two wheels ramps I bought.

The end result is new oil put in the car (I bought) by me using resources I transacted for.

Tell me: what do I any one?


Example: I plant tomato plants I bought in soil and tend to them.

The end result: big juicy tomatoes produced with resources I transacted for.

Tell me: what do I owe any one?


Common factors in these examples (and any others you can drum up): my efforts using fairly acquired resources producing results I intend.


My conclusions: I don't owe jack to any one beyond what's been agreed upon. Socialists (as well as a whole whack of other 'ists') threaten to interpose themselves as third party into the mix. I am offended by this.

[bobevenson]

The fundamental problem of socialism is the government forcibly taking money from one person to give to somebody else, an act a citizen would be thrown in jail for doing.

All money is granted by the state and they reserve the right to distribute it as they see fit. .

Jesus Christ, learn something about economics before shooting off your ill-advised mouth!

[bobevenson]

All states take money from people and give it to other people.

This is absolutely improper, and under the AEP would come to a screeching halt!

[FlashDangerpants]

All states take money from people and give it to other people.

This is absolutely improper, and under the AEP would come to a screeching halt!

Your pension doesn't come from money you saved Bob, it is supplied by taxes from the pockets of more productive people than you.

Under the AEP, its leader would starve and die. Which should be your election slogan.

[bobevenson]

Learn something about the political and economic, dum-dum!

[Hobbes' Choice]

The fundamental problem of socialism is the government forcibly taking money from one person to give to somebody else, an act a citizen would be thrown in jail for doing.

All money is granted by the state and they reserve the right to distribute it as they see fit. .

Jesus Christ, learn something about economics before shooting off your ill-advised mouth!

I stated a FACT.

Live with it!

[FlashDangerpants]

Learn something about the political and economic, dum-dum!

You pension isn't paid out of money you saved though. It is paid out of other people's taxes. That is a very simple fact.

The other fact that I mentioned is that all governments are required to do things that private citizens are forbidden.

These two things combine to nullify the entirety of your opening argument.

You should surrender quickly.

[Arising_uk]

... They have this notion that resources are infinite, not limited, ...

I take it that you don't equate Marx with Socialism then?

[mickthinks]

Henry: I have a problem allowing others to co-own, co-control, co-direct, resources I harvest or produce for myself.
Mick: Give examples of a resource produced or harvested entirely without the input or cooperation of anyone else.

Henry: I write something.
I'll leave aside (for now) the question of whether paying an agreed price for someone else's product (in this example, the paper, the typewriter, the ribbon; in later examples, the oil, the tomato seeds etc ...) counts as no cooperation or input from others, and I'll just point out that the ability to write is seldom acquired without input from not just teachers, but also friends, neighbours, play leaders, and so on.

Henry: I put new oil in the car
And you don't then drive the car anywhere, but keep it on your property?

Henry: I grow tomatoes.
Watered with bottled water purchased as was the oil in the second example? Or public-utility-supplied mains water? Or well water?

Finally, though as I have indicated I can see input from societal sources that I think are easy for libertarians to overlook in their determination to assert their self-reliance, I confess I wouldn't expect a socialist society to claim co-ownership of any of the outputs in your chosen examples. Which leaves unclear even the nature of your grievance, Henry, let alone the grounds on which you hold socialism to be to blame.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Emma Goldman famously denounced capitalistic wage slavery by saying: "The only difference is that you are hired slaves instead of block slaves."







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[Arising_uk]

A really, really, really big difference tho'

[henry quirk]

"I confess I wouldn't expect a socialist society to claim co-ownership of any of the outputs in your chosen examples."

I think if communitarians could lay claim to what I leave in the toilet, they would, if it served the 'community'.

[Necromancer]

Indeed, Socialism seems rife with both general crime and corruption in denying individuals any rights on their own.

However, I'm relaxed by the fact that Socialism both must be elected under Democracy and that Socialism must respect/be consistent with Human Rights in order to have any chance for governing anybody.

But there's the centre-left and the centre-right for making tomorrow happen. Why not the "social democrats, social liberals, greens, progressives and also some democratic socialists"? Much better IMO than the straight Socialism.

(Some wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-right_politics and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism.)

[henry quirk]

A cancer in my right little toe is better than one in my lungs, sure, but even better is no cancer at all.

[mickthinks]

I think if communitarians could lay claim to what I leave in the toilet, they would, if it served the 'community'.

Wait; Are we discussing real issues of real socialism in real life, or the imagined problems you have imagined imaginary socialists pose in your imagination, Henry?

Because there's a difference, and it's quite an important one.