A challenge to the modern scientific view of the self.

[prothero]

="Greta"Maybe that's just a less sophisticated filter, giving simpler animals a more minimalist POV? Until we have a direct mechanism showing exactly how neuronal signals become a sense of experience, the claim that consciousness is generated by the brain is made on faith, as are other claims.

Do you have any examples of consciousness or experience that do not involve "brains"?

[Belinda]

Seems to me that brains don't provide consciousness, they regulate it.

But if there were no brain and instead just simple reflexes involving the neurons of some sort of spinal cord there would be no consciousness.

Brain/ mind identity means that there is a brain-mind, and this entity can be appreciated as mind and as brain, however it's still the same entity.

Nevertheless brains and their associated chemicals do regulate consciousness but are not alone in this. Other consciousness regulators are endocrine hormones, the wider environment including other people, and accidental lesions of the brain-mind and the body proper.

Maybe that's just a less sophisticated filter, giving simpler animals a more minimalist POV? Until we have a direct mechanism showing exactly how neuronal signals become a sense of experience, the claim that consciousness is generated by the brain is made on faith, as are other claims.

Yes, and there is a direct mechanism from which in the case of the brain-mind a sort of neuronal signal is absent, unlike in the case of, say, the elbow joint.

Here's an experiment.

A blind man consults his doctor. Doctor instructs "Bend your elbow". The blind man does so and doctor asks "How did you know you bent your elbow?"

"I was conscious of it, Doctor."

Doctor says "That's true. Now think of a bunny rabbit".(br)

Blind patient says "Okay I did it."

Doctor: "How do you know you thought of a bunny rabbit (br)?"

Blind patient "Because I remember imagining a bunny rabbit. It was hopping about in a pretty meadow."

(scenario ends)

The key difference between the doctor's two instructions is that the doctor has good reason to know that the man's elbow joint is supplied with feed-back neural connection to the man's brain-mind. The doctor also knows that the bunny rabbit network (br) inside the patient's head is not supplied with feed-back neurons which inform some non-existent uber part of the brain-mind that bunny rabbit (br) has been thought.

Of course, you can substitute any cognitive content for (br). The brain-mind is so amazingly flexible that it can conceptualise almost any number of ( )s

[Walker]

="Greta"Maybe that's just a less sophisticated filter, giving simpler animals a more minimalist POV? Until we have a direct mechanism showing exactly how neuronal signals become a sense of experience, the claim that consciousness is generated by the brain is made on faith, as are other claims.

Do you have any examples of consciousness or experience that do not involve "brains"?

Stepping outside the generator paradigm:

Consider that consciousness is a subtle ambient energy, everywhere and nowhere in particular until received, or tuned. The brain functions as a receiver/tuner of that energy, like a radio receiver that can isolate frequencies which puts that receiver into a state of reception, or consciousness.

The radio is a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies. The brain is also a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies.

Different creatures are life support systems for their version of energy receiver/conduit brain. If you ask what is the source for this subtle, ubiquitous, ambient energy called consciousness that the brain receives, or tunes, then first inquire into the source of all energy.

[Terrapin Station]

="Greta"Maybe that's just a less sophisticated filter, giving simpler animals a more minimalist POV? Until we have a direct mechanism showing exactly how neuronal signals become a sense of experience, the claim that consciousness is generated by the brain is made on faith, as are other claims.

Do you have any examples of consciousness or experience that do not involve "brains"?

Stepping outside the generator paradigm:

Consider that consciousness is a subtle ambient energy, everywhere and nowhere in particular until received, or tuned. The brain functions as a receiver/tuner of that energy, like a radio receiver that can isolate frequencies which puts that receiver into a state of reception, or consciousness.

The radio is a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies. The brain is also a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies.

Different creatures are life support systems for their version of energy receiver/conduit brain. If you ask what is the source for this subtle, ubiquitous, ambient energy called consciousness that the brain receives, or tunes, then first inquire into the source of all energy.

He probably meant "example" in the sense of something for which there is evidence, not a SciFi possibility just in case we're imaginative and fantasy-oriented enough that we don't bother with the details of how it would work too much.

[Walker]

Do you have any examples of consciousness or experience that do not involve "brains"?

Stepping outside the generator paradigm:

Consider that consciousness is a subtle ambient energy, everywhere and nowhere in particular until received, or tuned. The brain functions as a receiver/tuner of that energy, like a radio receiver that can isolate frequencies which puts that receiver into a state of reception, or consciousness.

The radio is a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies. The brain is also a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies.

Different creatures are life support systems for their version of energy receiver/conduit brain. If you ask what is the source for this subtle, ubiquitous, ambient energy called consciousness that the brain receives, or tunes, then first inquire into the source of all energy.

He probably meant "example" in the sense of something for which there is evidence, not a SciFi possibility just in case we're imaginative and fantasy-oriented enough that we don't bother with the details of how it would work too much.

This, from someone who translates English to English for people who speak English.

Skipping fantasy and SciFi, please explain the Big Bang.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Stepping outside the generator paradigm:

Consider that consciousness is a subtle ambient energy, everywhere and nowhere in particular until received, or tuned. The brain functions as a receiver/tuner of that energy, like a radio receiver that can isolate frequencies which puts that receiver into a state of reception, or consciousness.

The radio is a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies. The brain is also a receiver/conduit for frequencies of energy, but not all frequencies.

Different creatures are life support systems for their version of energy receiver/conduit brain. If you ask what is the source for this subtle, ubiquitous, ambient energy called consciousness that the brain receives, or tunes, then first inquire into the source of all energy.

He probably meant "example" in the sense of something for which there is evidence, not a SciFi possibility just in case we're imaginative and fantasy-oriented enough that we don't bother with the details of how it would work too much.

This, from someone who translates English to English for people who speak English.

Skipping fantasy and SciFi, please explain the Big Bang.

Big Bang = a putative description of the first few moments of the universe extrapolated from the extant and observable appearances of the universe in its present state.
What is not to understand?

[Walker]

He probably meant "example" in the sense of something for which there is evidence, not a SciFi possibility just in case we're imaginative and fantasy-oriented enough that we don't bother with the details of how it would work too much.

This, from someone who translates English to English for people who speak English.

Skipping fantasy and SciFi, please explain the Big Bang.

Big Bang = a putative description of the first few moments of the universe extrapolated from the extant and observable appearances of the universe in its present state.
What is not to understand?

That’s just a misnomer. Where’s the bang Bub?

[Terrapin Station]

Skipping fantasy and SciFi, please explain the Big Bang.

Given that I'm assuming that something like this wouldn't do it for you:

The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model for the universe from the earliest known periods through its subsequent large-scale evolution. The model accounts for the fact that the universe expanded from a very high density and high temperature state, and offers a comprehensive explanation for a broad range of phenomena, including the abundance of light elements, the cosmic microwave background, large scale structure and Hubble's Law. If the known laws of physics are extrapolated beyond where they have been verified, there is a singularity. Some estimates place this moment at approximately 13.8 billion years ago, which is thus considered the age of the universe. After the initial expansion, the universe cooled sufficiently to allow the formation of subatomic particles, and later simple atoms. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through gravity to form stars and galaxies . . .

You're going to have to tell me what counts as an explanation in your view. I need to know the criteria you're expecting to be met for something to count as an explanation.

[Terrapin Station]

This, from someone who translates English to English for people who speak English.

Skipping fantasy and SciFi, please explain the Big Bang.

Big Bang = a putative description of the first few moments of the universe extrapolated from the extant and observable appearances of the universe in its present state.
What is not to understand?

That’s just a misnomer. Where’s the bang Bub?

A misnomer? What is it normally called then?

[Walker]

How in the world is that the cause of meat walking and talking.

[Hobbes' Choice]

This, from someone who translates English to English for people who speak English.

Skipping fantasy and SciFi, please explain the Big Bang.

Big Bang = a putative description of the first few moments of the universe extrapolated from the extant and observable appearances of the universe in its present state.
What is not to understand?

That’s just a misnomer. Where’s the bang Bub?

1) Please look up "misnomer"
2) re-read. And try again.

[Hobbes' Choice]

How in the world is that the cause of meat walking and talking.

It's not. You daddy fucking your mummy is the cause of meat talking stupid. Maybe that helps?

[Walker]

Big Bang = a putative description of the first few moments of the universe extrapolated from the extant and observable appearances of the universe in its present state.
What is not to understand?

That’s just a misnomer. Where’s the bang Bub?

1) Please look up "misnomer"
2) re-read. And try again.

Where's the bang, Bub?

[Walker]

How in the world is that the cause of meat walking and talking.

It's not. You daddy fucking your mummy is the cause of meat talking stupid. Maybe that helps?

You mean: stardust mingling with stardust.

Sure.



Stardust is the cause ... !

[Terrapin Station]

How in the world is that the cause of meat walking and talking.

How is the big bang the cause of these properties in your view:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ysu4Tlyu4p8/U ... ico+12.jpg

Or do you not believe that the structures depicted in that photograph are material?