How God could fail to convey His message?

[ken]

The problem we have in our hands, the subject of this thread, is not why people don't listen or don't pay attention to the rules given by God.

I never said "rules." Your OP says "message." I'm happy to go with that, not "rules."

Yes staying with messages here is better, but there is one rule, and One only, that God does convey by the way.

The problem is that why we have too many religions, in simple word why people are so scattered on what truth is?

Easy. Some are wrong, some are confused, and some aren't listening. In any case, the fault is not on God's side.

Agree wholeheartedly, but only as long as no person thinks/believes that they, themselves, are not wrong, not confused, and are not listening.

There are few option available: (1) There is no God, (2) God doesn't intend to send any message and (3) God is Satanic, meaning that he prefer to keep people in confusion. Which option do you pick up?

False trichotomy. You're not listing all the other possible interpretations, one of which is that God is speaking clearly, but people are refusing to listen.

So I go with option number 4.

Yes I agree.

The trouble is people want to listen only from the language that they have learned. They do NOT listen to the already KNOWING deep within them, which is where God/Thee One conveys messages from. What the human body experiences from the environment outside of it, is just the evidence and proof of what God is saying, which is what is already unconsciously KNOWN, anyway.

[ken]

No doc, you got it all wrong, determinism exists for everyone. Freewill exists in the framework of determinism. It's a fact!

It's not a fact, it's an opinion that you hold, But I can't help if you insist on being incorrect.

"It's a fact" is a tell for "I'm hoping you won't question this, because I can't prove it."

Instead of just assuming that imam WHY do you not question and challenge spheres? I KNOW if I wrote "It is a fact", then I would expect to get questioned. In fact absolutely everything I write I HOPE I do get questioned. I LOVE the challenge. Unfortunately, I do not get challenged near enough as I would like.

If you did actually question spheres, then we will all be able to see if your assumption here is right OR wrong imam.

i think I could easily prove what spheres is saying here AFTER I get clarification of what spheres actually means, which brings Me to if you would like to discuss this issue somewhere else spheres I would be more than happy.

If I read what you wrote right you are saying free will AND determinism co-exist, is this right?

If so, then that is how I view all of the philosophical issues such as creation/evolution, nature/nurture, free will/determinism, etc., etc. From My perspective there is only a AND not a OR, with each one of them proving the other correct. They all exist equally co-existing in equilibrium.

[thedoc]

it depends on where you draw the line. If everything is a factor that determines your actions, then determinism is true. If you are willing to allow some factors as being compatible with free will, then free will is possible.

[Dontaskme]

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Message from God > > ...........GOD = THAT WHICH IS = LIFE = THE PRESENT


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All unreceived gifts will be returned to sender.

[Immanuel Can]

Instead of just assuming that imam WHY do you not question and challenge spheres?

Oh, thedoc's doing fine.

Besides, I've challenged this one before. I don't feel the need to do it ever time somebody floats it.

[Immanuel Can]

it depends on where you draw the line. If everything is a factor that determines your actions, then determinism is true. If you are willing to allow some factors as being compatible with free will, then free will is possible.

Yep, it's all or nothing.

And it's the "all" that Determinists can never live with. After all, a true Determinist wouldn't even argue: what would the point be? Nothing ever changes from what it would otherwise be, and in any case, the recipient of the argument has no "free will" with which to believe it.

[Hobbes' Choice]

NO THAT IS NOT WHAT I CLAIMED, for two reasons.

1. What I actually claimed, but not specifically written, was the photograph was sent to you for a reason. This is your original post that I was replying to:


See, most people assume, wrongly I might add, that God created ALL things at once, once upon a time. .

Please have the decency to report what was your response to me question. Until you do you are just kidding yourslef.

I did report what was My response to your question. You just cut it out when you pasted this.

As regards god not creating the whole universe. that is just a bloody cop out, as well you know.

You are NOT reading what I am writing. I stated unlike what most people assume.....

I was saying, If God created the whole Universe, then that would HAVE to mean God IS creating the whole Universe RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW also.

Therefore, God put a PICTURE in front of you, when God did, for the very reasons I have previously explained a couple of times already.

If you want to insist staying with the actual dropping of the bombs regarding your question then that is fine. It is after all your question. But as I have already explained i thought you meant in regards to the picture, itself.

As to the message God conveys to you regarding the dropping of bombs, itself, then that is already self-evident, is it not?

The picture, the bombs; if it is one, the responsibility of god, then it is also the other. You are just picking and choosing.
God cannot give me a message in that picture without creating the conditions for which the picture was made.

What you say simply agrees with my estimation of you coping out.
It's like you have a cognitive disorder.

[bobevenson]

How God could fail to convey his message? He didn't (see the book of Revelation and "The Ouzo Prophecy").

[bahman]

Easy. Some are wrong, some are confused, and some aren't listening. In any case, the fault is not on God's side.

How people could be wrong and confused if God intended to convey a message to people? Even me and you can communicate on a topic without problem. Of course the problem is in God side since He is omniscient and omnipotent and He knows people well.

False trichotomy. You're not listing all the other possible interpretations, one of which is that God is speaking clearly, but people are refusing to listen.

Refuse to listen! What that could even mean? People of course could disobey but cannot be so confused when it comes to belief if God really wants to communicate with people.

[bahman]

That is already obvious is it not?

Because from the earliest human beings when evolved to discover that they now knew "right from wrong" as described in a story of adam and eve. From those earliest times human beings have NOT listened properly. They wanted to believe and assume that they, themselves, knew what was right and wrong. Nothing different to "today" really, but anyway that tradition of passing on that mis-conveyed message through ALL the so many different scattered cultures has led to the scattered views on what truth is. Individual people just LOVE to be RIGHT, and that love is passed on down through generation after generation. Because very young people are very open(minded) they have the ability to learn, understand, and reason anything. That is WHY any language can be learned so quick by any child at a very young age, but unfortunately of this openness gives them the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely anything, then absolutely anything can be obtained, including this LOVE of wanting to be right is also learned. Then with the added ability of being able to reason absolutely anything human beings learn to reason even things that are completely wrong. That is they can only reason it to themselves, but when that is done in co-operation with the belief-system, then, dare I say it, all "hell" breaks loose. As is apparent in this world we are living in "today".

Well, this is really a long writing. The problem is however very simple: (1) God is all powerful, (2) We have many religions (over 4000), (3) How such a thing is possible if God is intended to tell the truth?

Or people just do NOT listen to thee collective One, which KNOWS what IS actually right, i.e., thee One known by many names, including God. People just prefer to listen to their own selves and/or the other people that they put on a "pedal stool" and listen to.

I can assure you God/collective One is sending messages. For example every person KNOWS from birth what they NEED to live, i.e., clean enough air, clean enough water, enough nutrients, and attention, without these human beings individually and collectively cease to exist. This is what all human beings NEED and each individually unconsciously KNOWS this from deep within. It is a (God) given (message). Besides also NEEDING an environment to live and keep existing in, namely earth, as it is the ONLY one as far as humans are aware of "today", all else are just wants. If we take 'greed', to mean WANTING more than we NEED, then obviously every adult human being is greedy, and until that is admitted and rectified what will obviously happen and already being shown evidently is that greediness pollutes the air and water all human beings NEED. Deprives some of the little amount of nutrients that all human beings NEED. And, going to "work" in order to obtain money in order to buy all the unnecessary WANTS deprives the most vulnerable and the most influence of the attention they so NEED and WANT.

We all KNOW, from deep within, although unconsciously to most people of "nowadays" what we individually and collectively NEED to live and keep living YET all of us adults override that KNOWING with our each individual THINKING and "try to" justify, to ourselves only, that what we are actually doing for greed is actually the right thing to do, which by ALL accounts IS obviously WRONG.

Sorry for going off-track but the reason WHY people are so scattered on what truth is IS because as adults we unwittingly teach what is wrong in Life as being what is right in Life and because ever young human being is so open and thus able to learn absolutely anything, they also unfortunately also learn to believe what has been taught and passed on to them.

Just look at all the different scattered religions. All based on the exact same basic principles, a knowledge or a KNOWING from deep within each of us, but this got so lost and mis-communicated or scattered because people are so scattered throughout the earth each with their own language and beliefs, which continually get passed on relatively the same but also changing. God does NOT actually speak/convey messages in a language that EVERY human being could easily understand. God "conveys" messages in the already KNOWING, which is actually silence, from deep within. To put that in a easy to be understood by human beings way is to use in one human beings language, i.e., english,
'what it is' 'that' everyone agrees with is THAT KNOWING, or to put it in a way that could be scientifically proven just find out what all human beings could agree with.

You are not really offering that much. God can speak with individual face to face to ensure that the is no miscommunication. Couldn't He?

[ken]

Please have the decency to report what was your response to me question. Until you do you are just kidding yourslef.

I did report what was My response to your question. You just cut it out when you pasted this.

As regards god not creating the whole universe. that is just a bloody cop out, as well you know.

You are NOT reading what I am writing. I stated unlike what most people assume.....

I was saying, If God created the whole Universe, then that would HAVE to mean God IS creating the whole Universe RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW also.

Therefore, God put a PICTURE in front of you, when God did, for the very reasons I have previously explained a couple of times already.

If you want to insist staying with the actual dropping of the bombs regarding your question then that is fine. It is after all your question. But as I have already explained i thought you meant in regards to the picture, itself.

As to the message God conveys to you regarding the dropping of bombs, itself, then that is already self-evident, is it not?

The picture, the bombs; if it is one, the responsibility of god, then it is also the other. You are just picking and choosing.
God cannot give me a message in that picture without creating the conditions for which the picture was made.

What you say simply agrees with my estimation of you coping out.
It's like you have a cognitive disorder.

It is NOT the first time I have been told I have a cognitive disorder. Probably the result of being a very simple person.

I am NOT coping out. Just maybe my cognitive disorder is preventing Me from understanding what it is that you are actually wanting. Because, of course My lack of understanding what you actually want would have NOTHING to do with you, would it? So, it is ALL My fault. I apologize. I WILL accept and take fully responsibility.

Now, if I am not mistaken again, what you want from Me is to explain to you WHY God created a species so stupid that they would build bombs and then drop them on top of each other? Is that closer to what you want?

Or, is it the case, you want Me to explain God's responsibility, or lack of?

Either way in both cases, God ONLY creates and provides information/messages of 'what is right in Life'. If human beings do NOT want to listen to that information/guidance, then so be it. God certainly does NOT force any one or any one species to do anything. God has given human beings the intelligence to do and create absolutely anything that they want to.

As for building bombs and then dropping them on younger human beings heads, then God does NOT care one bit. If a created species is stupid enough to do that to itself, then the quicker that species wipes itself out, then obviously that is for the better. At least they will leave earth to rebuild itself, for the better of itself, and all the other animals.

Being eternal God is patient. A species that only existed for a few million years before they wiped themselves out is of no real importance, with eternity there will soon come along another, more intelligent species, which may or may not listen to God this time.

The more i think about this the more my "cognitive disorder" kicks in. What is it exactly you want God to be responsible for?

Do you also blame God if the weather is too hot or too cold for you?

Do you want God to take responsibility for the sun being too far away or too close to earth?

God created every thing just the way it is, and every thing evolves. No person likes to be told what to do, how to behave, and be forced to do things that they do not want to do. Human beings have the free will to choose whatever they want to do, but they can only choose, at any given time, from the preordained set of thoughts that they have. Therefore, human beings are evolving-creatively to learn how to become what is their destiny.

In other words God only provides guidance. God does not take responsibility for what you yourself do. ONLY if and when human beings decide to accept and take responsibility for what they themselves do, then they will learn how to get along with each other and stop making and dropping bombs on their offspring's heads.

I can tell you what an omnipotent God is trying to convey in that picture, in the bombing, in fact IN every thing around you. The actual message I am trying to convey to you is in the reason WHY you, yourself, cried when you saw that picture. From that place where empathy resides also resides ALL the knowledge you NEED to live a truly meaningful lie, i.e., to take responsibility for what you, yourself, do by creating a much better "world" for ALL to live in.

Human beings do NOT learn how to live properly if they allow a "God" or others to live it for them. People need to step up themselves and take responsibility for themselves.

Nah, I was going to go on and on trying to express this in different ways hoping one would "gel" with you, but My "cognitive disorder" is stopping Me right now. i keep thinking about how you and that belief-system of yours will actually not allow anything I say be understood now.

[ken]

That is already obvious is it not?

Because from the earliest human beings when evolved to discover that they now knew "right from wrong" as described in a story of adam and eve. From those earliest times human beings have NOT listened properly. They wanted to believe and assume that they, themselves, knew what was right and wrong. Nothing different to "today" really, but anyway that tradition of passing on that mis-conveyed message through ALL the so many different scattered cultures has led to the scattered views on what truth is. Individual people just LOVE to be RIGHT, and that love is passed on down through generation after generation. Because very young people are very open(minded) they have the ability to learn, understand, and reason anything. That is WHY any language can be learned so quick by any child at a very young age, but unfortunately of this openness gives them the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely anything, then absolutely anything can be obtained, including this LOVE of wanting to be right is also learned. Then with the added ability of being able to reason absolutely anything human beings learn to reason even things that are completely wrong. That is they can only reason it to themselves, but when that is done in co-operation with the belief-system, then, dare I say it, all "hell" breaks loose. As is apparent in this world we are living in "today".

Well, this is really a long writing. The problem is however very simple: (1) God is all powerful, (2) We have many religions (over 4000), (3) How such a thing is possible if God is intended to tell the truth?

There is NO possible chance it could be anything else could there?

Because there is NO way that it could be a human beings fault, could it? It MUST be "God's" fault, according to you.

If a ten line writing is "really a long writing", to explain something that has been troubling human beings for countless centuries, then I sure am NOT going to be able to to do it in a shorter writing, am I?

Or people just do NOT listen to thee collective One, which KNOWS what IS actually right, i.e., thee One known by many names, including God. People just prefer to listen to their own selves and/or the other people that they put on a "pedal stool" and listen to.

I can assure you God/collective One is sending messages. For example every person KNOWS from birth what they NEED to live, i.e., clean enough air, clean enough water, enough nutrients, and attention, without these human beings individually and collectively cease to exist. This is what all human beings NEED and each individually unconsciously KNOWS this from deep within. It is a (God) given (message). Besides also NEEDING an environment to live and keep existing in, namely earth, as it is the ONLY one as far as humans are aware of "today", all else are just wants. If we take 'greed', to mean WANTING more than we NEED, then obviously every adult human being is greedy, and until that is admitted and rectified what will obviously happen and already being shown evidently is that greediness pollutes the air and water all human beings NEED. Deprives some of the little amount of nutrients that all human beings NEED. And, going to "work" in order to obtain money in order to buy all the unnecessary WANTS deprives the most vulnerable and the most influence of the attention they so NEED and WANT.

We all KNOW, from deep within, although unconsciously to most people of "nowadays" what we individually and collectively NEED to live and keep living YET all of us adults override that KNOWING with our each individual THINKING and "try to" justify, to ourselves only, that what we are actually doing for greed is actually the right thing to do, which by ALL accounts IS obviously WRONG.

Sorry for going off-track but the reason WHY people are so scattered on what truth is IS because as adults we unwittingly teach what is wrong in Life as being what is right in Life and because ever young human being is so open and thus able to learn absolutely anything, they also unfortunately also learn to believe what has been taught and passed on to them.

Just look at all the different scattered religions. All based on the exact same basic principles, a knowledge or a KNOWING from deep within each of us, but this got so lost and mis-communicated or scattered because people are so scattered throughout the earth each with their own language and beliefs, which continually get passed on relatively the same but also changing. God does NOT actually speak/convey messages in a language that EVERY human being could easily understand. God "conveys" messages in the already KNOWING, which is actually silence, from deep within. To put that in a easy to be understood by human beings way is to use in one human beings language, i.e., english,
'what it is' 'that' everyone agrees with is THAT KNOWING, or to put it in a way that could be scientifically proven just find out what all human beings could agree with.

You are not really offering that much.

So, tell me what is it exactly do you want Me to offer you here?

God can speak with individual face to face to ensure that the is no miscommunication. Couldn't He?

NO. You have just proven that here in your last two words.

WHY would you even assume God is a 'he'?

If you do NOT disregard ALL of your beliefs and assumptions BEFORE you have a discussion, then you will NOT be able to learn anything otherwise. Even evidence, proof, logic or God can NOT penetrate the belief-system. That is already widely known, is it not?

The belief system was created and has evolved to where it is today, but now sadly to human beings own demise.

[bahman]

There is NO possible chance it could be anything else could there?

Because there is NO way that it could be a human beings fault, could it? It MUST be "God's" fault, according to you.

God cannot fail to convey his message. Couldn't It? Yes, or No?

So, tell me what is it exactly do you want Me to offer you here?

A simple reason that why we have 4000 religions knowing the fact that we have only one powerful God?

NO. You have just proven that here in your last two words.

WHY would you even assume God is a 'he'?

Lets say "It". Is that ok now?

If you do NOT disregard ALL of your beliefs and assumptions BEFORE you have a discussion, then you will NOT be able to learn anything otherwise. Even evidence, proof, logic or God can NOT penetrate the belief-system. That is already widely known, is it not?

No. God can convince people that It exists. Do you believe that I am a person who is discussing with you? Yes. God can do the same thing with each individual to don't leave any room for doubt.

The belief system was created and has evolved to where it is today, but now sadly to human beings own demise.

System of belief does not need to evolve if it is given by God.

[Immanuel Can]

How people could be wrong and confused if God intended to convey a message to people? Even me and you can communicate on a topic without problem. Of course the problem is in God side since He is omniscient and omnipotent and He knows people well.

The Bible says they get the message. It says that mankind has an innate knowledge of God, because God has made it plain to them that He exists -- the Creation itself giving persistent testimony to that fact.

It talks about "men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness," and says they are being willfully ignorant, "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them." Then it adds, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

Without excuse. That's mankind. And I have found it to be quite so. I can honestly say that in my many travels I have never met a person who had not already struggled with the intuition that there is a God, and that he/she ought to be doing something about that...

Refuse to listen! What that could even mean? People of course could disobey but cannot be so confused when it comes to belief if God really wants to communicate with people.

See above.

Mankind has free will. We have a choice whether or not we respond to the voice of conscience when it speaks. We can shut down our consciences...and unless God wishes to override our free will and thus subvert our freedom of decision and our individual personhood, then He will not force us to believe the truth.

But we know it's the truth anyway. As University of Texas Ethicist Jay Budziszewski has so pithily written, in his book What We Can't Not Know, "Those who say they do not know are playing make-believe, and doing it badly."

[thedoc]

Refuse to listen! What that could even mean? People of course could disobey but cannot be so confused when it comes to belief if God really wants to communicate with people.

It could be stated as 'Willful Ignorance' and on another forum I am in a conversation with just such a person, she refuses to hear or see anything that contradicts what she already believes to be true. So if God's message did not coincide with what she already believed to be true, she will reject it as false.