~ Where Do You Find Meaning in Your Suffering? ~

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Seems like, almost everyone, is kind-of missing my intended focus of this thread. I assume that is because of the way I originally presented it. Here is an example of what I was looking for;

When I was young I suffered to express myself - so I would draw and create art.


When I got a bit older I suffered when I was forced to dramatically change my lifestyle - so I threw myself into school work & I discovered the benefits of philosophy.

When I became a construction worker I became aware that weaker individuals suffered in a couple of ways - so I maintained the discipline of working-out & weight training every day after work.


...Those are the type of things I was looking for. But still, your responses have been appreciated.








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[henry quirk]

In other words: you sought solutions to problens.

Glad to see we're (finally) on the same page.

[Terrapin Station]

I realized that I had more of an intellectual advantage if I didn't just follow suit with what others expected and/or requested simply because they had expected and/or requested it. So unless significant amounts of money would be involved, unless significant other assets that I desired were involved, or unless it meant possibly losing my freedom (in the sense of incarceration), I followed what I was interested in and did things the way I preferred to do them a la existential authenticity.

Is that the sort of thing you're looking for?

[Lacewing]

Thank you for taking the time to offset the rather sophomoric responses that appear right above your.

Why are the responses sophomoric, Bill? They seem like legitimate and thoughtful points. Perhaps the reason you prefer that generalizations be applied to everyone is because you are uncomfortable with the implications of "individual" responsibility/experience? I’m not saying that you cause bad things to happen to you –- rather, your response to it, and how you interact with it and mix with it, is your “way”... which is FINE. That’s how it is for you... not everyone.

I don’t even think about suffering, though I have endured and survived a lot of stuff. I seem to focus beyond suffering when it happens. There may be brief questions like “How did this happen?” or “How did I get here?”... but I’m focused on moving beyond it, because I can remember what it’s like to be elsewhere. I know that elsewhere exists. I don’t typically dwell on thoughts of something “happening to me”... I think of “what can I do with this that has arisen” and “what are other potentials”? Even if it’s a long battle I’m engaged in, there are so many other layers of awareness to explore. The “act of suffering” doesn’t seem to hold my attention, and there doesn’t seem to be much meaning there for me. (This isn’t any sort of bragging. This is an honest response.)

[Terrapin Station]

There may be brief questions like “How did this happen?” or “How did I get here?”... but I’m focused on moving beyond it, because I can remember what it’s like to be elsewhere. I know that elsewhere exists. I don’t typically dwell on thoughts of something “happening to me”... I think of “what can I do with this that has arisen” and “what are other potentials”? Even if it’s a long battle I’m engaged in, there are so many other layers of awareness to explore. The “act of suffering” doesn’t seem to hold my attention, and there doesn’t seem to be much meaning there for me. (This isn’t any sort of bragging. This is an honest response.)

Yeah, I typically just focus on experiencing things and savoring them for what they uniquely are.

[Greta]

I agree that suffering is inevitable. There's no escape unless you have an amazing way of looking at things. It's the fundamental problem of life.

Maybe you'd give a less evasive answer: what are some specific ways that you regularly experience suffering (if there are any for you)?

I was not trying to be evasive. From memory, you didn't ask me anything to evade. Anyway, there is a small piece of suffering straight way - being misunderstood and misrepresented.

More significantly - death of family, pets and friends. Mental illness and disorders. Sickness. Surgery. School bullying. Depression. Addictions. Suicide attempts. Workplace bullying. Relationship and marriage failures and breakdowns. Car accidents. Being ripped off. Natural disasters. Guilt. Cruelty. Seeing the suffering of others. Fear. Insecurity. Aches, pains, stings, itches. Accidents. Poverty. Governmental interference with liberties. Evictions.

The above describes the incredible good fortune of the luckiest organisms in the planet's history. Others do it far, far harder.

[Terrapin Station]

I was not trying to be evasive. From memory, you didn't ask me anything to evade.

Sorry--I didn't mean that you had been evasive. I meant, "Maybe you'd give a less evasive answer than other people have."

Anyway, there is a small piece of suffering straight way - being misunderstood and misrepresented.

More significantly - death of family, pets and friends. Mental illness and disorders. Sickness. Surgery. School bullying. Depression. Addictions. Suicide attempts. Workplace bullying. Relationship and marriage failures and breakdowns. Car accidents. Being ripped off. Natural disasters. Guilt. Cruelty. Seeing the suffering of others. Fear. Insecurity. Aches, pains, stings, itches. Accidents. Poverty. Governmental interference with liberties. Evictions.

The above describes the incredible good fortune of the luckiest organisms in the planet's history. Others do it far, far harder.

Wait--I was asking about your personal experience. You're saying that you've had all of those issues?

Also, re "being misunderstood and misrepresented," do you see suffering as something that involves psychological pain or significant psychological distress?

[Lacewing]

Yeah, I typically just focus on experiencing things and savoring them for what they uniquely are.

I do that too (you described it well) -- since things don't usually evolve/transform overnight. I try to have gratitude for what is -- while not becoming tangled in it or convinced by it. I think when I can love what is, I can experience more.

[Greta]

Wait--I was asking about your personal experience. You're saying that you've had all of those issues?

No. I thought about suicide regularly for a long time but never quite mustered a proper "attempt". No natural disasters either. The other problems apply. Live long enough and stuff will happen to you, yes?

Also, re "being misunderstood and misrepresented," do you see suffering as something that involves psychological pain or significant psychological distress?

Good question and I don't know.

I find this video touching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT8bms2RHe8 (and the music is beyond perfect for the small scale tragedy). What does C. elegans feel as it's having its innards sucked out by P. pacificus? We don't know. They have nerves but no brain. Are they essentially numb and twitching from impulse? Or does their simple nervous system, unregulated by a brain's capacity for filtering, experience the pain as searing beyond anything humans can imagine?

We used to believe that infants didn't feel circumcision, and some of the little ones even seemed to sleep through the procedure. Later, brain scans showed extreme stress reactions resulting in the infants passing out from the pain, but assumed to be asleep. The simple alien minds of infants and other species can be hard to get a read on.

Based on memory and observation, it seems to me that children are more sensitive to pain, less able to cope, and there's often added confusion and fear of the unknown. The mental filters, experience and "toughening up" that allows adults to shrug off pain takes time to develop. There are, of course, complex mental pains that seem to only be a problem for human adults. Comparing pains is a fraught business. Neuroscience seems to be the most reliable arbiter at this stage.

[ken]

If others are happy, then how could you be (truly) suffering?

Why does it work one way and not the other?

Who said it did work ONLY one way?

If ALL others are happy, then how could you be (truly) suffering?

But, if only some others are happy, then there will be others who are suffering.

And, if (some) others are suffering, then how could you be (truly) happy?

Why does only one side receive an "all" qualifier?

If you do not want to answer the questions, then just say so. Or, you could just answer the questions.

If you really want to know why one side receives an "all" qualifier, then what do you think the reason is? Obviously, if ALL others are suffering, then you would not be (truly) happy. Unless of course you have absolutely no empathy at all. But, the chances of a person in a philosophy forum having no empathy at all is very slim indeed.

Some people might think that they could or would be (truly) happy if ALL, a majority, or only a few others around them were suffering, so I asked the question HOW could you be (truly) happy if others are suffering? I do this so people will at least think about this situation. If they could explain how they could be, then hopefully they will provide Me with an answer. If they could not be, then hopefully they will provide Me with that response.

If ALL others are happy, and you could be (truly) suffering, then I would like you to explain to Me HOW you could be. If, however, ALL others are suffering, and you could be (truly) happy, then I would like you to explain to Me HOW you could be. Both "sides" CAN receive an "all" qualifier, but I was only asking about one "side", then you appeared to be questioning what about the other "side" so I replied to that.

Maybe I am missing the point you are wanting to make here?

[ken]

I agree that suffering is inevitable. There's no escape unless you have an amazing way of looking at things. It's the fundamental problem of life.

If i can not and thus do not suffer any more, then so can any and every other person also.

How easily that "amazing way of looking at things" is achieved IS truly amazing. It will be a surprise when found out what that actual way of looking is and how truly easy it was to obtain.

By the way it is NOT the fundamental problem of life.

The fundamental problem of life is, How can we solve all of our problems?

The answer/solution to that question/problem is also very easily achieved, again once you know how.

[ken]

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Seems like, almost everyone, is kind-of missing my intended focus of this thread. I assume that is because of the way I originally presented it. Here is an example of what I was looking for;

When I was young I suffered to express myself - so I would draw and create art.

How, exactly, did you suffer when you were young?

And where did you find meaning in your suffering?

When I got a bit older I suffered when I was forced to dramatically change my lifestyle - so I threw myself into school work & I discovered the benefits of philosophy.

How, exactly, did you suffer when you got a bit older?

When I became a construction worker I became aware that weaker individuals suffered in a couple of ways - so I maintained the discipline of working-out & weight training every day after work.

What is a "weaker individual", and what are those couple of ways they suffered and how, exactly, did you see them suffer when you were a construction worker?

And, where did you find meaning in your suffering?

...Those are the type of things I was looking for. But still, your responses have been appreciated..

If those are the type of things you were looking for, then do you really think you would get that from posting just three pics and the words,"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering."?

Besides discovering the benefits of philosophy did you find any other meaning any where?

By the way what does 'philosophy' mean to you?

Anyway here are my experiences; only on reflection 'i suffered', but in the moment, as a child, i never thought i was suffering. To me that was just how life was. Although, at that time, i still wished i was never born. The reason I wished this was because I never experienced being wanted. I could not nor would not have looked for meaning in anything. So, it was only on reflecting back that I could find meaning. Never feeling love was the best thing in life that could have happened to me. I now understand and know far more then I could have ever imagined without those past types of "suffering" experiences.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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The quote I chose to use is from a rather famous philosopher here at the forum and throughout the world, Friedrich Nietsche.

Thought it was one of his most dynamic, insightful statements.


Of the three images that I chose to use is one a depiction of Christ in the midst of his deepest physical & psychological suffering.


Another is of the late Mother Teresa comforting one of the many terminal patients that she chose to comfort within her life.



The third image was a collage of words that could have been used as a step-off point for inducing fertile, related intellectual debate.


I then gave a rather revealing portrait of my own quest for meaning in my personal suffering.






I appreciate your attempt to relate to this very specific, philosophical thread.







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[Hobbes' Choice]

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Like I really wanted to 'attach' myself to that cancer?

What he means is the root of suffering is caring about yourself, the world and others. Its only when you reject everything that you not longer give a damn about suffering.

[ken]

Bill,

Was this reply directed at Me in any way? If it was not, then disregard what i have written here. If it was, then read on.

The quote I chose to use is from a rather famous philosopher here at the forum and throughout the world, Friedrich Nietsche.

Thought it was one of his most dynamic, insightful statements.

But how did you interpret it? What did it mean to you?

You do know that EVERY person can interpret just about any thing differently, even interpret it oppositely?

Of the three images that I chose to use is one a depiction of Christ in the midst of his deepest physical & psychological suffering.

Why did you use it?

I thought christ would not have been psychologically suffering at all at that point. Why and what do you think he would have been fearing and/or suffering from at that time?

Another is of the late Mother Teresa comforting one of the many terminal patients that she chose to comfort within her life.

What did that have to do with suffering?

If you meant the terminal patient was suffering, then you do know that every body is a terminal patient? There is no eternal body, that we know of yet. How and why would any person "suffer", just learning that they are not going to live forever? Where did this 'I' and 'eternal' misconception come from? I would think that if one thinks they were going live forever, then that is delusional thought. If a person is delusional, then that is a 'terminal illness', in of itself, i.e., an illness that will, in a relatively very short time, be terminated.

The third image was a collage of words that could have been used as a step-off point for inducing fertile, related intellectual debate.

It could have been a step-off point (for anything) but according to you it obviously was not a step-off point for what you wanted. You said, "Seems like, almost everyone, is kind-of missing my intended focus of this thread. I assume that is because of the way I originally presented it."

I guess this assumption was probably more right then what you were assuming when you first put this "idea" out here.

By the way what is there to debate, intellectually or not?

HOW and WHERE do you imagine asking, "Where do you find meaning in your suffering" could actually lead to any kind of debate whatsoever? What did you expect when asking people what they did/do in a certain particular PERSONAL circumstance other than of getting one's own personal view?

What each person thinks and does, in absolutely any circumstance, is absolutely totally understandable, when and after you know how the Mind and the brain work, that is. If, by the way, any person notices and thinks this is a bit contradictory to what I have written above, then that was on purpose. If any person did not notice the "somewhat" contradiction, then do not worry about it. It is not really that important for here and now.

I then gave a rather revealing portrait of my own quest for meaning in my personal suffering.

When did you do that? I did NOT see you revealing very much at all really, if any thing.

I certainly did NOT see any "quest" for meaning. I also certainly did NOT see any personal suffering at all, also. You do know, right, that you have to actually write down the actual personal suffering that you went through, AND, the actual quest for meaning that you had/were doing, in order for others to be even able to get a slight glimpse of them?

I actually asked you a number of very straight forward, clarifying questions, eight of them to be exact, so that i could grasp some kind of suffering from you personally, But, unfortunately, you did NOT answer one of those questions. Then I went on explaining in somewhat detail what you were now asking for, i.e., what we were/are suffering from AND "Where do we find meaning in that suffering?"

I think I gave a much more revealing account than you did, but then again, from other's perspectives, I may not have. That is, however, for them to decide that.

You do know, by the way, that some people like Me may have found so much meaning in past, what could be called "suffering" that I now could NEVER suffer at all nor at any time.

I appreciate your attempt to relate to this very specific, philosophical thread.[/size]

What do you mean by "attempt"?

If I have failed in any way, or not gone into enough depth in any way or as much as you would like, then just let Me know. That is not too hard is it? I will then again "attempt" to relate to this very "specific philosophical" thread, of yours, next time.

By the way if you think that what you provided in your opening post in any way provides clues as to what this very SPECIFIC philosophical thread was going to be about, then I think you are very mistaken.

Hey bill why did you NOT answer just one of My questions? I ask, hoping, you will answer this time, because I find not just you but every person I have talked with here does NOT answer My questions. Is it the way I ask them? Do My questions not appear and stand out as I hope they do? Do they get read in some way I do not understand? Or, is it something else why you did not answer any of them? Any honest answer(s) here would be greatly appreciated.