What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

[Dontaskme]

I am sorry but I cannot follow you.

That's Okay..I'll try again in shorter version.

Life and Death are concepts known ... how is any concept known?... concepts are known as they are thought.
For something to be acknowledged...there has to some recognition of the knowledge.
The recognition comes from memory which is the storehouse of all ideas/concepts/beliefs and thought.

What is it then that remembers the conceptual memory... awareness does. But although awareness knows each concept/thought as it arises, the concept has no concept of what awareness is.
Concepts arise in awareness.. awareness does not arise in a concept. Awareness is always present, concepts are not.

In that context...nothing is actually living or dying. Nothing is thinking. No one is conscious.

Then you said..

This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

That's because thought is the unconsciousness becoming aware of it's self...becoming conscious of itself.

When latent awareness(unconscious) knows itself through sensation...thought is born (conscious)

Only the mind is born. Thoughts of the mind come and go...(live and die)
The unconscious awareness of thought is unborn permanence.

This phenomena is KNOWN..but never seen or experienced.

Because the experience is just the thought/belief/idea sensation / concept...etc...

[Arik-Alb]

For a thought to form, doesn't there need to be (conscious) experience along with it? For example, if I think of a particular that I want for dinner, it's because I have some prior (conscious) experience of eating such a salad, and I know I liked the taste of it and felt good afterwards. If I were not conscious, what meaning could a thought about salad possibly have (or could the thought even exist)?

Note that what I'm calling "consciousness" here is (I think) what Dontaskme is calling "unconsciousness". It's that non-conceptual stuff of experience (e.g. taste of a salad), which is the base that makes thought possible.

As far as processing thoughts in the mind goes -- consider listening to music. You only hear one note at a time, but the quality it has depends on the sounds that preceded it. It's somehow still connected with prior sounds, even though it's the only sound experienced right then. Thinking seems similar -- only one thought is in mind at a given moment, though it's also connected to the larger context of thoughts that preceded it. Or the right way to say this may be that a single thought carries a context with it, which was formed by prior thoughts, and will continue to be formed as thinking continues.

[bahman]

For a thought to form, doesn't there need to be (conscious) experience along with it? For example, if I think of a particular that I want for dinner, it's because I have some prior (conscious) experience of eating such a salad, and I know I liked the taste of it and felt good afterwards. If I were not conscious, what meaning could a thought about salad possibly have (or could the thought even exist)?

Lets say that you are thinking about having a dinner. Suddenly an idea pop in your conscious mind, the salad. Where this come from? From subconscious mind. You are not conscious of subconscious mind so you cannot possibly say that you are consciously decided the salad. You are in fact subconsciously decide about the dinner. The fact that you already experience the taste of salad doesn't really help much because it was mentioned the decision made subconsciously.

Note that what I'm calling "consciousness" here is (I think) what Dontaskme is calling "unconsciousness". It's that non-conceptual stuff of experience (e.g. taste of a salad), which is the base that makes thought possible.

You don't really need to be conscious of the taste of salad. The decision is made by your subconscious mind. You just remember the last time you have the salad and that tasted good.

As far as processing thoughts in the mind goes -- consider listening to music. You only hear one note at a time, but the quality it has depends on the sounds that preceded it. It's somehow still connected with prior sounds, even though it's the only sound experienced right then. Thinking seems similar -- only one thought is in mind at a given moment, though it's also connected to the larger context of thoughts that preceded it. Or the right way to say this may be that a single thought carries a context with it, which was formed by prior thoughts, and will continue to be formed as thinking continues.

Thoughts just pop into your conscious mind. They are all processed in subconscious mind. You have no control on what should be pop into conscious mind, they just simply pop into your conscious mind.

[Dalek Prime]

1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

It's wrong. No consciousness, no entity to think a thought. A thought isn't floating around, waiting for a home.

Bahman, I do like the way you delve into interesting ideas, and bring these topics up, but the real answer is usually the simplest.

[Dalek Prime]

Let me change the one word I would have changed, and follow through on that:

1) We can be aware of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot process thoughts with awareness
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our sub-aware minds
4) This means that there is no use of awareness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Consciousness is a vague term that is used to do too many things, where the term 'awareness' better serves to clarify. Do you see how the change in one word serves to refocus the problem, and demystify it.

[bahman]

Let me change the some word Iwould have changed, and follow through on that:

1) We can be aware of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot process thoughts with awareness
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our sub-aware minds
4) This means that there is no use of awareness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Consciousness is a vague term that is used to do to too many things, where the term 'awareness' better serves to clarify. Do you see how the the change in one word serves to refocus the problem, and demystify it.

That looks better given the fact that I didn't defined consciousness.

[Dalek Prime]

Let me change the some word Iwould have changed, and follow through on that:

1) We can be aware of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot process thoughts with awareness
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our sub-aware minds
4) This means that there is no use of awareness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Consciousness is a vague term that is used to do to too many things, where the term 'awareness' better serves to clarify. Do you see how the the change in one word serves to refocus the problem, and demystify it.

That looks better given the fact that I didn't defined consciousness.

I know. I'm not knocking you bud. I like your mind, and just wanted to refocus the issue you brought up, for clarity.

[Arising_uk]

Left Brain/Right Brain test.

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Apparently I use my brain equally.

Although I see you're still putting this stuff out even though I told you that retests of Jayne's work with the latest imaging tools show his results don't hold.

[sthitapragya]

1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

It is because of thoughts that you know you are conscious. Consciousness does not contribute to thought. Thoughts create consciousness.

[bahman]

1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

It is because of thoughts that you know you are conscious. Consciousness does not contribute to thought. Thoughts create consciousness.

Thought create consciousness for what purpose? Where thoughts come from?

[sthitapragya]

1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

It is because of thoughts that you know you are conscious. Consciousness does not contribute to thought. Thoughts create consciousness.

Thought create consciousness for what purpose? Where thoughts come from?

External stimuli. Then the neurons and axons do their work and your brain perceives it as words which you have to train it to do. Language is basically your brain translating things for you. "Doh!! a deer". You cannot think that in Russian, if you don't know the language. Whatever language you teach the brain, that is the language in which it will translate things for you and you call them thoughts.

Frankly, even I am studying this for the first time, so I don't have much of a grasp on the subject yet. But so far, this is what I have understood, thanks to Greta, who pointed me in the right direction.

Also, it seems logical that if consciousness was inherent to all animals and was the cause of thought, there would be a universal language which we would not have to learn. Since there doesn't seem to be one, we must assume that thoughts create consciousness and not the other way round.

[bahman]

It is because of thoughts that you know you are conscious. Consciousness does not contribute to thought. Thoughts create consciousness.

Thought create consciousness for what purpose? Where thoughts come from?

External stimuli. Then the neurons and axons do their work and your brain perceives it as words which you have to train it to do. Language is basically your brain translating things for you. "Doh!! a deer". You cannot think that in Russian, if you don't know the language. Whatever language you teach the brain, that is the language in which it will translate things for you and you call them thoughts.

Frankly, even I am studying this for the first time, so I don't have much of a grasp on the subject yet. But so far, this is what I have understood, thanks to Greta, who pointed me in the right direction.

Also, it seems logical that if consciousness was inherent to all animals and was the cause of thought, there would be a universal language which we would not have to learn. Since there doesn't seem to be one, we must assume that thoughts create consciousness and not the other way round.

What do you mean with "you"? You really didn't answer my questions.

[sthitapragya]

Thought create consciousness for what purpose? Where thoughts come from?

External stimuli. Then the neurons and axons do their work and your brain perceives it as words which you have to train it to do. Language is basically your brain translating things for you. "Doh!! a deer". You cannot think that in Russian, if you don't know the language. Whatever language you teach the brain, that is the language in which it will translate things for you and you call them thoughts.

Frankly, even I am studying this for the first time, so I don't have much of a grasp on the subject yet. But so far, this is what I have understood, thanks to Greta, who pointed me in the right direction.

Also, it seems logical that if consciousness was inherent to all animals and was the cause of thought, there would be a universal language which we would not have to learn. Since there doesn't seem to be one, we must assume that thoughts create consciousness and not the other way round.

What do you mean with "you"? You really didn't answer my questions.

I did. You just don't seem to have understood it. Maybe this will help you get started. http://engineering.mit.edu/ask/what-are-thoughts-made

[Dalek Prime]

1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?

It is because of thoughts that you know you are conscious. Consciousness does not contribute to thought. Thoughts create consciousness.

I'd have to mull this over a bit, but if I'm not aware, I'm not having a thought. Even in a dream, I'm aware of dreaming.(Yes, I'd prefer using 'awareness' in this context, to avoid 'conscious' overload, which I've stated elsewhere.)

[sthitapragya]

It is because of thoughts that you know you are conscious. Consciousness does not contribute to thought. Thoughts create consciousness.

I'd have to mull this over a bit, but if I'm not aware, I'm not having a thought. Even in a dream, I'm aware of dreaming.(Yes, I'd prefer using 'awareness' in this context, to avoid 'conscious' overload, which I've stated elsewhere.)

You are thinking from the perspective of an adult human being. You have already been trained in a particular language and you have learned to associate words with external stimuli. That is why your thoughts, when you focus on them, seem to have a language. But when you are not focusing on your thoughts, there is no language. I can think of what I want to type but when I observe the process and the speed with which I do it, i realize that if I actually told my finger, "type I" and then my finger did it, then on to the next letter and so on, it would take forever. It is obvious there is communication between my fingers and my brain which is faster than words can form in my mind. We know that it is combination of electrical impulses and chemicals that manage it, quite similar to how an ant works. Had our brains been less evolved, we would be living a life quite similar to an ant's.

We however have a brain which has evolved enough to give us a language and when we choose to, explain to us a tiny bit of what happens. But we also have a brain which is sufficiently evolved to understand that we will die some day, which no other animal has. Animals might be able to understand that they are dying, but they do not seem to have the ability to understand that they could die some day in the future. This ability of humans seems to have brought with it questions like, " If I am going to die, why am I here?" etc etc. This brought with it awareness of the self which had nothing to do with survival, which we call consciousness. Consciousness springs from the ability to think. That is why a brain dead person is declared dead. Once the ability to think goes away, there is no consciousness. Consciousness is a byproduct of thought.