The Futility of Reason

[Dontaskme]

If you know you are not separate, then resonate with the rest of us or shut up....

Priceless!

That's what I admire about you Lw....your capacity to laugh at yourself.... that's when your not getting your pants in a pickle...

[Hobbes' Choice]

No one is talking here.

Exactly, there's just what's appearing as words on the screen of awareness...there's no meaning in a word except the one you give it... the meaning is the word, but the word does not have actual meaning...it's all trickery.

Communication is either conceptually verbalised or in conceptual symbolic form, both being illusory appearances of sound and light.

For example: the concept Death is absolutely empty. No picture comes to mind about death. Therefore every concept is nothing more than a metaphorical representation and not real reality for there is nothing behind an image known that appears in the mind other than a conceptually constructed metaphor.

Sorry you are by your own definition meaningless. I can't hear you.

[Reflex]

If you know you are not separate, then resonate with the rest of us or shut up....Why you getting so heated about what you already know..? why do you keep saying it's other peoples trip? .. who is this other one who according to you is on there own trip...

Why are you separating yourselves out from "others" in such a way as to claim how much more you know/see? Why is that necessary?

No one can do that it is impossible...have you tried splitting yourself in two lately ?

When this one apparently goes against the flow, it singles itself out...it does this to itself, albeit illusory... LW you either understand oneness or you don't, and you are clearly not understanding it right now....otherwise you wouldn't be in conflict with other posters. What is happening right now is what's happening and no one doing it, all that is appearing as your words and my words is oneness expressing itself, because that's what it does...the one who wants to know why this is all necessary is not Lacewing, but the one who is playing the character LW....that one is expressing itself right now....can that be avoided...no it can't...please get a grip and stop beating yourself up over this...flow with the flow...effortlessly and smoothly back to the ocean of oneness, and stop with all the grinding noises .

If you agree with what I'm saying then stop fighting with it.

Behold the reason I ignore LW! Not ignoring LW would be like forcing myself to listen to fingernails being dragged across a chalkboard.

LW embodies the kind of thinking that is killing not only Sweden, but all of Western Europe. If you look up "Sweden has died" on YouYube, you'll see what I mean.

[Dontaskme]

Sorry you are by your own definition meaningless. I can't hear you.

No surprise there, since I don't exist.

[Harbal]

Behold the reason I ignore LW! Not ignoring LW would be like forcing myself to listen to fingernails being dragged across a chalkboard.

If you're ignoring Lacewing how did you know there was anything to behold?

LW embodies the kind of thinking that is killing not only Sweden, but all of Western Europe.

That's impressive. She sounds like a one woman Holocaust, I'm just glad I'm on good terms with her.

[seeds]

...rather than considering our collective magnificence I prefer to discuss why we are in Plato’s cave and what is necessary to leave it.

Hi Nick_A,

I suggest that we are in Plato’s cave by design.

In other words...

(and from my perspective as a Panentheistic, Berkeleyanish idealist)

...the purposely attenuated level of consciousness that humans must function at in order to make standing on a rotating ball, flying through the inner-dimension of God’s mind seem natural and logical to us, is at the root of Plato’s allegorical expression of our dilemma.

However, instead of thinking of us as being trapped within a cave in which we can only experience "shadows" of a higher dimension of reality, consider a different and more "natural" possibility in which our minds (souls) are like fetuses (the “embryos” of God, if you will) that are momentarily held within the “womb” of God’s “spirit body.”

It is a precise analogy of when we were momentarily held within the darkness of our mother’s womb where we had absolutely no way of comprehending the reality of the outer (higher) context of our mother’s situation, or the higher level of consciousness to which we were yet to awaken.

In which case (and yes, in extremely metaphorical terms), as we press our ears against the abdominal wall (cave wall) of God’s spirit body, we (some of us) can sense the presence of a vast and higher context of reality, but the only way of reaching that transcendent context is through the process of a second and final birth (through that vaginal-like “tunnel” that leads to the light of true reality).

(For a fanciful pictorial representation of what I just described, see http://theultimateseeds.com/murmurings.htm. Note, when you land on the first illustration, scroll down. Don’t click on “Previous/Home/Next”)

[Nick_A]

Hi seeds. You wrote:

I suggest that we are in Plato’s cave by design.

First of all, since you are attracted to Panentheism you can’t be all bad. But I have to disagree with you here. First I don’t believe we are born with the completed soul Christendom believes in. Rather we have a seed of a soul with the potential for a soul and the result of conscious evolution. The cause of the human condition as I understand it is beyond the scope of this
thread. A human soul has certain freedoms and obligations we cannot appreciate as cave dwellers. But still, if you agree with me on the Panentheistic understanding that the universe is the body of God, you’ve got a kindred spirit here. IMO it is the logical skeleton which can eventually unite science and the essence of religion.

[Reflex]

Behold the reason I ignore LW! Not ignoring LW would be like forcing myself to listen to fingernails being dragged across a chalkboard.

If you're ignoring Lacewing how did you know there was anything to behold?

Because, dummy, I'm not ignoring DAM.

[Nick_A]

Lacewing wrote:

If I do not subscribe to your framework and conclusions,

That's OK. At least you know that the foundation of my beliefs is that we are as described by Plato psychologically asleep in a cave enchanted by the shadows on the wall and governed by imagination. As a result we are oblivious to our conscious possibilities.

What is the foundation on which your beliefs are based upon and grow from?

[Harbal]

Because, dummy, I'm not ignoring DAM.

In that case, you're the dummy for ignoring the wrong person.

[Lacewing]

If I do not subscribe to your framework and conclusions,

That's OK. At least you know that the foundation of my beliefs is that we are as described by Plato psychologically asleep in a cave enchanted by the shadows on the wall and governed by imagination. As a result we are oblivious to our conscious possibilities.

What is the foundation on which your beliefs are based upon and grow from?

Although I know I'm setting myself up for absurd judgments and projections... I'll give you an honest answer to the best of my ability, considering that I don't "lock it down" into some sort of static description as human beings seem inclined to do...

I don't really have set beliefs. My awareness is informed by an inherent intuition, understanding, and nameless quality fed by ever-present connection/oneness that is expressed in many creative ways, often effortlessly and fluidly (without ego attachment) through this being with this name, as part of a natural flow that does not seek to control or identify.

[Nick_A]

Lacewing wrote:

Although I know I'm setting myself up for absurd judgments and projections... I'll give you an honest answer to the best of my ability, considering that I don't "lock it down" into some sort of static description as human beings seem attached to doing...

I don't really have set beliefs. My awareness is informed by an inherent intuition, understanding, and nameless quality fed by ever-present connection/oneness that is expressed in many creative ways, often effortlessly and fluidly (without ego attachment) through this being with this name, as part of a natural flow that does not seek to control or identify.

Is it accurate to say then that you don't have a foundation for your awareness but rather it appears through intuition so not necessarily connected to other experiences.

If this is true, how do you distinguish between reality and fantasy? In math we can prove our solution true or an error. In chess we know our reasoning is faulty because we lose. Do you have a way of verifying the truth of your intuitive experience?

[Reflex]

A Course in Consciousness, not to be confused with ACIM, is a PDF book that may be of interest to Seeds, Nick and Dontaskme.

[Greta]

DAM, a links that I expect you would agree with. Like you, the commentators enjoy referring to reality as illusory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF61lhEeGng

I used to read up on this stuff all the time and seen a lot of documentaries and movies. Did the mediation classes. Yoga. I've had peak experiences that felt like a true reality, rendering this reality dreamlike.

But I still think that everything is fundamentally real. The "space" between subatomic particles and between cosmic bodies is something - not nothing, or true voids. The "voids" are all infused with forces emanating from massive particles and cosmic bodies.

[Lacewing]

Is it accurate to say then that you don't have a foundation for your awareness but rather it appears through intuition so not necessarily connected to other experiences.

In the past I have been more informed by experience and having a foundation than I am now. It is a very different dynamic now. I could draw the comparison that it's the difference between walking and flying. You don't need a foundation as much for flying.

If this is true, how do you distinguish between reality and fantasy?

How does anyone? Having a foundation... having supposed proof or answers... does not assure any truth of reality.

In chess we know our reasoning is faulty because we lose. Do you have a way of verifying the truth of your intuitive experience?

Well, it is continually working/successful. This intuition knows and sees things that are repeatedly verified (through results and through other people), and it often receives answers as naturally/effortlessly as breathing. There are continual examples of things lining up perfectly and efficiently -- sometimes apparently against all odds. Some people might consider it as impossible or as miracles almost every day. People who know me, witness it. It appears (to me) to be the natural flow (and oneness) that any of us might discover when we're not getting "ourselves" in the way of it with our egos and our stories.