OVER THE EDGE

[Lacewing]

I’m fascinated yet repulsed by this condition where so many people are presenting themselves as having a uniquely direct line to a superior and/or divine awareness and/or truth WHICH THEY THINK OTHERS HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED OR UTILIZED IN ANY WAY.

Such representation of course PRESUMES a great deal about the reality of all things, and about other people (and their own paths or lack of them). Such people will say that they aren’t presuming anything... that they KNOW. They don’t seem to notice that THEY (themselves) are actually part of a SEA of such people, all presuming DIFFERENT things, and blasting projections at people who they presume to be unaware of the “truth” they are uniquely aware of.

Some might say that we all have access to “the greater truth” they speak of, if we are willing or open enough to see it. Which is, again, presumptuous and rude.

Such “supreme” positioning is such an intoxicated trip... that it often seems like there’s LESS AWARENESS rather than more. It becomes blinded and disoriented from staring into its own light. And whether it is identified as a type of theism or something else, it offers an other-worldly invincible cloak to conceal/deny its lack of immunity from the darker elements by which all manner of injustices and ignorance can continue being carried out.

When people adopt a position of speaking “the ultimate truth”, they stop noticing that they can’t and don’t.

As I wrote elsewhere...

I'm wary of a lot of people these days who get really high and fast on some supposed dose of "broader awareness". They are ready to tell everyone else how it is (based on their particular perspective), and thereby catapulting themselves into a position of higher authority (which they usually want recognition for). There's something about that, that seems really wrong to me; I suspect that the human ego is quick to go along for the ride, hiding in the backseat. It seems dangerous and often delusional. Across our landscape/reality, it's as if a new battlefield is being set up for the mini-gods to stake their claims... and there are so many of them!

These hordes of “ego-riding masters”, tripping off of their particular encounter with cosmic or god consciousness, are turning that into an ideal delusion that glorifies themselves and sets others beneath them. Such intensity is really very creepy on this world stage. Our past history has had its encounters with such extremes, and we appear to be full speed ahead for our own “armageddon”: the battle of the wannabe gods who seem to be so far afield from any true understanding of unity. Such egos are lifting themselves into the “heavens”, crowning themselves, sitting on thrones, and laying waste to those who attempt to speak otherwise to them.

What causes people to go so completely over the edge... such that they actually STOP SEEING MOST EVERYTHING/EVERYONE, while they SAY they see more than everyone else? (Even Donald Trump is an example in this regard.) It is a bizarre kind of madness, is it not? Is it a ramped-up version of delusion associated with our apparent ramped-up evolution (too much, too fast, too disconnected) -- or is it just more of the same of our human history (same madness, different day)?

[Impenitent]

the egocentric predicament gives uniquely common results...

-Imp

[Skip]

The ancient Greeks had a nice, sad little story about Narcissus; modern demagogues have carried his condition to an extreme. I suppose it's a function of technology: from pond to mass media is too many steps for a human personality to survive intact.

[sthitapragya]

I’m fascinated yet repulsed by this condition where so many people are presenting themselves as having a uniquely direct line to a superior and/or divine awareness and/or truth WHICH THEY THINK OTHERS HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED OR UTILIZED IN ANY WAY.

What causes people to go so completely over the edge... such that they actually STOP SEEING MOST EVERYTHING/EVERYONE, while they SAY they see more than everyone else? (Even Donald Trump is an example in this regard.) It is a bizarre kind of madness, is it not? Is it a ramped-up version of delusion associated with our apparent ramped-up evolution (too much, too fast, too disconnected) -- or is it just more of the same of our human history (same madness, different day)?

Actually, it is rooted in the need to feel special. You come up with a theory which seems unique to you. You tell it to a few close friends and they go gaga over you. So you start to feel even more special. The ego boost is a rush. Then you start seeing everything from the light of your theory and somehow everything makes sense. So you feel you have attained knowledge others don't have. The problem is compounded by ignorance of scientific research.

I know all this because I was one of them. I too had a theory which was so amazing and perfect that I just KNEW I was right. And I KNEW I knew and saw more than anyone else did. It made me feel special and unique and one of the chosen ones. Then I started reading science. Luckily, my ego wasn't so big and I had some sense of objectivity left in me, so I realized I was completely wrong. It was shattering to come back to earth and be like every other person, but I think actually knowing stuff and knowing how little I know was a good trade off for that egotistic ignorant asshole I was then.

The irony is that my theory pretty much covered everyone of the guys you are thinking of. So I was all of them combined. I had even made a blog for the world to see my stupidity but I took that one down before anyone read it. So I was saved a lot of embarrassment.

[Dontaskme]

What causes people to go so completely over the edge...

You may find the answer to that question in the following article...

Walking the Razor’s Edge Toward Enlightenment


http://www.theeventchronicle.com/metaph ... ghtenment/#

A quote from the article ...

“Only to the extent that we can expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible in us be found.”

Found as in seeing the bigger picture.

Read the article if you are genuinely interested in understanding the human condition and why you say the things you say in the OP

[Skip]

Some brutally hard shit must hit some unpleasantly fast fans before you can even think about placing a single toe on the Path toward Providence. Too heavy of a colloquialism for you? Okay, try this: before you can experience the stillness on the tip of the iceberg of illumination, you must first have reconciled the hidden iceberg of annihilation. Too cryptic for you?

Too big a pile of overused metaphors to mean bugger-all for you?
Yep.

[Lacewing]

I know all this because I was one of them.

Knowing what you know now, is there anything that anyone could have said or showed to you that would have made one speck of difference at that time? Or is this an example of how "locked in" the mind can get, and how relentless and sometimes vicious the ego can be in protecting itself at all costs? Even if that means re-writing reality... and destroying anyone who threatens the illusion? If this is what we're dealing with... it IS rather vicious, isn't it? Like a rabid beast?

I always find it so strange when people think that NO ONE ELSE has experienced or heard anything about "greater awareness" and "divine connection" and "ultimate being", etc. That somehow we don't know about these concepts of which they speak, regardless of the words that are used. Every one wants to be the enlightened explorer that brings back ultimate truth for the masses. But it makes no sense... when we can truly respect and see the magnificence of the other souls that are around us, then we could GUESS that they might have travelled similar paths, or considered similar concepts MANY, MANY, MANY times. And perhaps they've simply come to different conclusions/viewpoints. We don't need to keep having things repeated to us (by each new wave of "messengers" with their own particular flavor)... as if we must be spoon-fed these profound truths because they're too far over our head. When someone does that to me, I think they're very young and/or foolish... as they seem to have no recognition of awareness looking right back at them!

I try to be compassionate and connect if possible, but it usually feels like I'm dealing with their sneaky egos way too much.

[Skip]

You know, sometimes it's necessary to cling to illusions.
No, not quite that - not quite necessary (useful, important, life-supporting) and not quite illusions (an alternate view, an enhanced, adjusted version).
Sometimes the person who refuses to see life, the world or their own future in all its stark reality has a reason for doing so.
Maybe an existential reason: If you accept that you will die in this cave, you will die in this cave, instead of making the superhuman effort to climb out, on the slight chance of success.
Maybe a transitional reason: If you don't envision yourself in a life without the chronic pain, or anxiety, or depression, you won't take the medication with unpleasant side-effects, or seek the help and undertake the discipline that might, just possibly, cure your condition.
Maybe a pragmatic reason: If you don't have the conviction of the preachment, nobody else will be convinced and they won't vote for you or attend your church service. Maybe a cynical reason: you don't actually believe, but must sound like you do, to persuade others to fight your war or send money.
Sometimes a pathetic reason: without the specialness, the revelation, without a holy spirit sitting on your head, your ego would crumble and you would be the nothing you really, deep down, fear that you are.

A strong personality with adequate physical, emotional and social resources can have mistaken ideas, overblown theories, conceits, fancies, youthful enthusiasms and brief flirtations with ego-mania and outgrow them all. A weak or damaged personality, one without a good external support and feedback structure, might contract one such fallacy in an impressionable moment, and never recover.
Take a poll of Ayn Rand fans, past and present.

[sthitapragya]

Knowing what you know now, is there anything that anyone could have said or showed to you that would have made one speck of difference at that time? Or is this an example of how "locked in" the mind can get, and how relentless and sometimes vicious the ego can be in protecting itself at all costs? Even if that means re-writing reality... and destroying anyone who threatens the illusion? If this is what we're dealing with... it IS rather vicious, isn't it? Like a rabid beast?

No. What really happens is that you actually see that even the contradiction confirms your theory but the other person refuses to see it. In my case, my brother is an atheist and I used to wonder why he made such ridiculous claims? But then I have always admired his intelligence so instead of focusing on what he said, I started asking myself why he said it. I realized that I needed to at least consider the possibility that I might be wrong. Once I started on that path, the rest was inevitable.

Yes, it is all about the ego and denial. But I don't think I had any need to destroy anyone. I suppose that is just personality. Some just want to and theory or no theory they will be like that.

I always find it so strange when people think that NO ONE ELSE has experienced or heard anything about "greater awareness" and "divine connection" and "ultimate being", etc. That somehow we don't know about these concepts of which they speak, regardless of the words that are used.

But I can understand that. I think I have told you I had a vision or epiphany or sensus divinitus or whatever it is called. And I literally did not know anyone else who had been through anything similar. So it was obvious to me that I really did know something no one else had experienced. They might have heard of God. I had felt It. And along with it comes a conviction of the existence of God which cannot be doubted at all. I absolutely had no doubt that God existed till I decided to challenge my theory. Even then I was completely convinced from the bottom of my heart and soul that God existed. It was just my theory that was in question.

Every one wants to be the enlightened explorer that brings back ultimate truth for the masses. But it makes no sense... when we can truly respect and see the magnificence of the other souls that are around us, then we could GUESS that they might have travelled similar paths, or considered similar concepts MANY, MANY, MANY times. And perhaps they've simply come to different conclusions/viewpoints. We don't need to keep having things repeated to us (by each new wave of "messengers" with their own particular flavor)... as if we must be spoon-fed these profound truths because they're too far over our head. When someone does that to me, I think they're very young and/or foolish... as they seem to have no recognition of awareness looking right back at them!

I can understand that too. Somehow it seems that if I tell you these profound truths you will understand because I am special and have that unique connection with God no one else has. Since there are a lot of people like that, each will repeat his version of the profound truth. That is just human behaviour.

I try to be compassionate and connect if possible, but it usually feels like I'm dealing with their sneaky egos way too much.

Of course you are. It is absolutely all about the ego. To believe in God, you have to have a huge ego. Can you imagine how special you must be for the being who created the whole universe to take time out just for you? Even if it is just to judge you? It makes every act of yours significant to the universe, no just to the people around you. Somehow you are so special that everything you do will affect the universe. Letting go of this specialness is the biggest hurdle. That is the only reason that you will find that theists will refuse to even consider the possibility that God does not exist, take that as premise and just run with it. They will refuse to do it. But that could also be because for every unexplained you would have to turn to science and that is a big headache if you are not scientifically minded. And that I know from personal experience.

The other problem is that a little science is a superstitious thing. As soon as you read something like quantum entanglement, you go "AHA!!!! SEE??? I WAS RIGHT!!", which is simply because you haven't understood it.

I am convinced that the difference between a theist and an atheist is psychology. Nothing more and nothing less. And I don't mean it in a demeaning way because I can also see that the need for God or even the special connection with God somehow does not seem to change you in anyway whatsoever. It is just a personal thing of no significance whatsoever mainly because the belief or disbelief in God does not really change reality in anyway. So it is just about whether one can let go or not.

[Dalek Prime]

You know, sometimes it's necessary to cling to illusions.
No, not quite that - not quite necessary (useful, important, life-supporting) and not quite illusions (an alternate view, an enhanced, adjusted version).
Sometimes the person who refuses to see life, the world or their own future in all its stark reality has a reason for doing so.
Maybe an existential reason: If you accept that you will die in this cave, you will die in this cave, instead of making the superhuman effort to climb out, on the slight chance of success.
Maybe a transitional reason: If you don't envision yourself in a life without the chronic pain, or anxiety, or depression, you won't take the medication with unpleasant side-effects, or seek the help and undertake the discipline that might, just possibly, cure your condition.
Maybe a pragmatic reason: If you don't have the conviction of the preachment, nobody else will be convinced and they won't vote for you or attend your church service. Maybe a cynical reason: you don't actually believe, but must sound like you do, to persuade others to fight your war or send money.
Sometimes a pathetic reason: without the specialness, the revelation, without a holy spirit sitting on your head, your ego would crumble and you would be the nothing you really, deep down, fear that you are.

A strong personality with adequate physical, emotional and social resources can have mistaken ideas, overblown theories, conceits, fancies, youthful enthusiasms and brief flirtations with ego-mania and outgrow them all. A weak or damaged personality, one without a good external support and feedback structure, might contract one such fallacy in an impressionable moment, and never recover.
Take a poll of Ayn Rand fans, past and present.

This is pretty much what Zapffe says.

[sthitapragya]

A strong personality with adequate physical, emotional and social resources can have mistaken ideas, overblown theories, conceits, fancies, youthful enthusiasms and brief flirtations with ego-mania and outgrow them all. A weak or damaged personality, one without a good external support and feedback structure, might contract one such fallacy in an impressionable moment, and never recover.
Take a poll of Ayn Rand fans, past and present.

I agree completely. I just disagree with the choice of words "strong" and "weak". I believe the key is introspection. I know a lot of very strong personalities who rarely introspect and they can never recover from their false concepts because they remain in denial and their strong personality helps them stay there.

You will also find that you rarely come across people who know their own strengths and weakness and are comfortable in themselves and are constantly striving to get rid of their weaknesses because they understand that reality demands that people with fewer weaknesses succeed. These are the people who will let go of their egos and be open to ideas because they understand that being right or wrong is not a big deal. The only important thing in life is constant self improvement.

[Skip]

That's what you need a robust support and feedback system for. Friends who point out your crappiest arguments and a mate or mother or somebody who will laugh at your pretensions.

[Dontaskme]

I always find it so strange when people think that NO ONE ELSE has experienced or heard anything about "greater awareness" and "divine connection" and "ultimate being", etc.

No one is thinking that.. only you.

First of all there is no greater awareness separate from you.You are awareness full stop. There is no other thing being aware... because there is no other than awareness itself...there is only awareness...what part of that explanation do you not understand?

You are very good at articulating your ideas, beliefs and feelings....but please know these things are not yours....they arise and fall in you....you are the awareness of them...the awareness is always there whether ideas, beliefs, or feelings are there or not. The you is not a thought, belief, or a feeling, you are that in which these arise...which is awareness....we all share that same awareness....we are all one.

Sometimes, in life we cannot fix our self if something is not working properly...and so what usually happens is we seek the help of a professional like a seeing a doctor for example when our body is broken.
It's the same with the mind, sometimes we need to seek the professional assistance in the form of a psychiatrist. It's the same when we want to understand the bigger picture of the nature of self or reality...We seek the knowledge of the enlightened masters....do you see? ...if we do not trust the profs...then we will suffer the consequences...we have the free will to choose what we want to adhere to...but all in all we are dependant on others for our survival...the parts are all operating together as a whole machine, no one part can function independently from the whole. A car cannot run smoothly without an efficient engine or if there is a missing part...the point is...if we act as if we are separate we will be missing the bigger picture.

I've already provided a great link for you to read explaining how all of life's creation walks the razor's edge of being and not being...have you read it....probably not ..because you appear to come across as someone who is so stuck in what they believe to be their own personal belief...when in truth, life is not personal.



People who have awakened to their nothingness are attempting to point that out to others...not that they are saying they have some knowledge that you don't...or that they know and you don't....no, that's not what's happening, if you listen carefully to what others are saying at this forum,...you'l see that what they are saying is that no one awakens, no one gets enlightened, and that is in fact what enlightenment is...it's awakening to your nothingness in which everything arises and falls away.

Awareness is not an experience to be had by a someone.....All there is is awareness. It is not an experience.

Experiences arise and fall in it. The you that you believe to exist is an experience.

The connection is made albeit an illusory connection when there is a realisation by no one that the one believed to exist is actually not a thing, but arises as all things. Things being the experiences. The no thing in which experiences arise and fall is not a thing...it is awareness...thinging.


Why are you getting so hung up about this..?..what is that you don't seem to understand that you get so repulsed by? don't you see that there is only oneness?

[Lacewing]

don't you see that there is only oneness?

Yes... and the oneness contains ALL of it... the glorious and the understood and the repulsive and the misunderstood and the unrelenting egos messing with all of it. Don't YOU see that there is only oneness when you are telling "others" what THEY are/aren't and all that you suppose they aren't aware of? Why do you need to judge and tell oneness anything?

[Walker]

Well hell who don’t know that. So what? No one's getting hurt.

Get on with it.