Truth is not found in mental chatter.

[ken]

i think enough people will wake up in time, otherwise I would not be here learning how to find the right words/language to express how, with change, EVERYONE could live together in peace and harmony.

Do you realize that this "effort"... this goal... is not new?

YES.

People from all walks of life and belief systems and perspectives will say that their efforts are intended to wake people up to "the truth".

YES i understand that lots and lots of people have said this. This unfortunately may make it harder for one who actually does come to some sort of actual True awareness, if that happens.

And it has been going on for eons.

YES I know.

Whose truth?

EVERYONE"S Truth.

What truth?

Truth is only truly known WHEN EVERYONE is in agreement on what the Truth is.

What is this "truth" that we, ourselves, must wake ourselves up to?

The Truth is THAT what EVERYONE could be in agreement with and of.

Ask a lot of people, and you'll get a lot of answers. Many ideas of how to do it "right". Many ideas of what "it is".

YES very very true. I think this is very widely known by many.

And... still, we keep looking for NEW, UNIQUE words and ideas to express it and accomplish it... at least based on our perspective of what "it is" and what is needed...

WHY do we do this?

WHY do you do this?

and I suspect such perspectives could keep on expanding.

Maybe, maybe not. I always find it amusing that what is supposedly new was actually expressed many hundreds and thousands of years ago.

Two hundred years from now, there will likely be a new common level of supposed wakefulness/awareness, and there will still be those insisting that we need to awaken further. And on it goes.

Yes maybe true.

Is there even an end to reach?

Every end is just a beginning, but reaching an end where every person knows how to create a better world, by now knowing how to live in peace and harmony together i think is a good end to reach.

Why do we need that?

Because making a better world for everyone is i think better than making a worse world for ourselves.

What would truly happen when we get there?

Nothing changes in that we continue to keep changing and learning, the these that we are actually unable to stop doing, but now we are just making life better for ourselves instead of making it worse for our children, and grandchildren, and great grandchildren etc., etc.

What would happen if we stopped thinking that this is "wrong"?

But I never said this is wrong. I have actually stated that everything is in perfection NOW, we can not get more 'right' than perfection, in that human beings have had to create and make a messy/sick work in order to learn properly and thus know, for sure, how to create and make a much better, healthy world not just for themselves but for EVERYONE.

What would that feel like?

I am not sure, but ecstatic, fulfillment, achievement, rewarded, sense of purpose, contentment, etc. etc., might be some of the feeling words human beings would feel like.

What would we do with it then?

Live, just like we always have been, i.e., learning and teaching, but, just with far more insight and happiness than we live "now".

Do you think you could be looking at what is being accomplished, from a very personal individual view, and thus are only seeing just another individual person "trying" to do just another thing that many people have already tried?

Could that very individualistic point of view you have be stopping you from seeing that what is actually being achieved is coming from Oneness, It Self, and not just from any one or any group of people?

[Hobbes' Choice]

This is wise advise. Trouble that when he is fucked off, he's also fucked on, and being a knobhead also makes his a cunthead too.
There is no escape from his mental logic.

I'd rather be a mystical fool than an educated potty mouth idiot.

Of all the things I've lost. I miss my mind the most. Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

More mental chatter!!!

[Lacewing]

And... still, we keep looking for NEW, UNIQUE words and ideas to express it and accomplish it... at least based on our perspective of what "it is" and what is needed...

WHY do we do this?

WHY do you do this?

It seems like art and exploration to me. What can I create and discover with "this"? It's not about reaching an ultimate truth or an end. And if we bring our egos into it (even with good intentions), we turn it into something else. I'm guessing that people do it their own ways for all their own reasons.

Is there even an end to reach? /... What would truly happen when we get there?

Nothing changes in that we continue to keep changing and learning, the these that we are actually unable to stop doing, but now we are just making life better for ourselves instead of making it worse for our children, and grandchildren, and great grandchildren etc., etc.

Do you not think that a higher level of functioning is completely involved in manifesting all of this? Do you think that the physical nature of this world (as it appears) somehow overrides that higher level of functioning?

You seem to be questing after an ultimate goal? I am not. Maybe because I've stopped believing that my vision for how the river should flow is somehow a superior vision to what is actually happening. That doesn't mean that I don't focus on improving things all the time (because I do)... but it's more about the quality of energy in the moment... rather than continually striving toward an ultimate vision of what "needs to be" on the cosmic canvas. I can envision my own art... and then focus on the energetic quality of the moment, and that appears to ripple fast and far. But again, I'm not trying to control it or determine what "should" be. It appears best to stay out of the way, and not block or manipulate the larger flow -- and instead focus on maintaining my own clarity.

Do you think you could be looking at what is being accomplished, from a very personal individual view, and thus are only seeing just another individual person "trying" to do just another thing that many people have already tried?

No, I'm not looking at it like that. I'm considering that it's bigger than us, and there's value in our focusing on our own energy vibration, rather than trying to define how things should be. Ironically... if we stop doing and imposing, and start being and flowing, the universe seems to flow perfectly on all sorts of levels. What we are capable of seeing at any given moment, is not all there is to see -- so, I think it's valuable not to take any particular image (we may see) too seriously... rather, perhaps, admire (and learn to love) the artwork.

Could that very individualistic point of view you have be stopping you from seeing that what is actually being achieved is coming from Oneness, It Self, and not just from any one or any group of people?

No. I DO see/respect a flow of oneness and complete connectivity, and that steers me away from thinking that we must involve ourselves with driving ultimate changes that we think need to be reached within the oneness. Oneness contains ALL of it... naturally.

[Greta]

We can only journey the paths of our own choosing. No one is better than anyone else here, the job of a shelf filler or a toilet cleaner is just as important as someone who is a Phd master of geographical sciences. We each journey our own individual life path, we learn what we are ready to take on at every moment of our lives as part of human evolutionary personal growth.

I never claimed otherwise. I'm not talking about "better", I'm talking about respect and humility. Think of all the brilliant minds and ingenious ideas and devices that contributed to humanity's body of knowledge. Yes, we know it's all wrong or incomplete because learning is a work in progress, but it contains all these powerful perceptions, of many people over many years. Yet each of us can only perceive and understand a much smaller amount of reality with our single mind (connected with family and friends) over just a few decades. We literally expand our consciousness as we access the products of other minds.

The human body of knowledge is an incredible resource that is directly responsible for both our existence and continued survival, and within it are the answers to many personal and relational problems, if only we would access it.

What's right for me right now might not be right for you and vice versa. We should not judge or demean other peoples life choices.

What I see from you is persistent advocacy of your life choice to remain uneducated and to follow your instincts and the prettiness of mythology. You persistently judge others for embracing education, trying to give the impression that we are misguided while you have found The Right Way. Glass houses ...

Don't waste your breath on someone not walking the same path as you.

That would make a hermit I suppose, as an outsider, I'm all for cross-pollination.

Humans are naturally seekers of truth in one form or another, a scientist is a disguised mystic. Same difference. We're all at it, except some appear to be in denial.

Yes, we're all trying to find out what's going on.

I note that you can't help denigrating those not on your path

Why mock those who have found their own truth... why put them down? awakened people are a valuable asset to society.

''What is truth to me is not truth to another. The same arguments and evidences that convince one mind make no impression on another.''

Is this for the forum generally? I don't think I've mocked you, just disagreed. I have an aversion to the current US anti-education trend, a religiously-inspired movement "intelligently designed" to make people hostile to science so they may embrace ancient mythology.

It's a desperate power play from established movements that set themselves up around superceded ideas. Ironically, they then create their own "science" (pseudoscience) with egocentric notions like "awakening" and "enlightenment". Rule of thumb: if someone claims to be awakened or enlightened then they are too focused on their ego and status to be enlightened, although I am leery of the entire concept as a clever extension of competitive ape status games. Claiming enlightenment is a way of claiming to be better than others while deflecting suspicious of egotism by also claiming to be too enlightened to think of themselves as superior.

We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

[Lacewing]

you decided you didn't want to talk about it anymore... to such a degree that it's like it no longer existed, and then I was kind of attacked for suggesting that it did.

That's the beauty of not living in the mental chatter of the mind... I can observe the mental activity without attaching to it, so everything just seems to pass straight through like it never happened, that's what happens to people who choose to live in the no mind of pure awareness.

I'm familiar with what you speak of.

I would NOT say that this interaction demonstrated the "beauty" of it, though -- rather, something else. If we consider that you were snapping at me for "inexplicably" talking about education, when my post clearly SHOWED that I was directly responding to things you had said -- and then you told me not to talk to you if I couldn't stay on topic -- well, that's not exactly demonstrating a heightened state of clarity or awareness, right? So, honestly, doesn't this seem more like the ego didn't want to talk about it anymore?

You may not want to talk about the past... and just move forward... but if you're not aware of what you're doing and leaving behind and handing to others, doesn't that matter? This isn't all about you (or any of us), right?

I'm wary of a lot of people these days who get really high and fast on some supposed dose of "broader awareness". They are ready to tell everyone else how it is (based on their particular perspective), and thereby catapulting themselves into a position of higher authority (which they usually want recognition for). There's something about that, that seems really wrong to me; I suspect that the human ego is quick to go along for the ride, hiding in the backseat. It seems dangerous and often delusional. Across our landscape/reality, it's as if a new battlefield is being set up for the mini-gods to stake their claims... and there are so many of them!

I think we have to be careful, especially since we can see our power and realize that it can be used for ANYTHING (awareness does not automatically make a person "good"). Responsibility and self-clarity becomes more important than ever. I think we may have to maintain a position outside of ourselves (so-to-speak) to watch ourselves and keep our multi-faceted selves in check... Yes?

[ken]

Lacewing I really am enjoying this discussion. Neither of us is believing our self to be right and the other wrong. It appears we both are just trying to show what we each see but without rejecting the others point of view, while we are both also trying to see from the others perspective and point of view also. This openness and Oneness feels truly amazing. I think we are so very close to a full understanding of each other.

And... still, we keep looking for NEW, UNIQUE words and ideas to express it and accomplish it... at least based on our perspective of what "it is" and what is needed...

WHY do we do this?

WHY do you do this?

It seems like art and exploration to me. What can I create and discover with "this"? It's not about reaching an ultimate truth or an end. And if we bring our egos into it (even with good intentions), we turn it into something else. I'm guessing that people do it their own ways for all their own reasons.

Those reasons that each person keeps looking for new, unique words and ideas to express is as varied as the past experiences each person has uniquely had. The reason, i think, we all create, through art and exploration, differently is because we, human beings, are all uniquely different because we are all, literally, created differently. Every physical human body is obviously very unique and different, and, every person within every unique, different individual human body is a very unique and different individual. The reason every uniquely different individual person is unique and different is because no body can experience the environment around it the exact same. The information that flows through the five senses of the human body could not and is not the exact same for two bodies, therefore, every person is uniquely different. But, all are created equally, in this way just described.

You know how you said to me earlier that maybe because of my familiarity of not being heard in past experiences that then could be affecting how I write now, which I totally agreed with. It appears to Me also that you keep persisting with statements like, "It's not about reaching an ultimate truth or an end." Even though I have never mentioned anything like this you keep writing this. Do you think reaching an ultimate truth or an end is really anything that I am about here?

There is also a point that I want to get to eventually, but I am hoping you will find and see that point by yourself, before hand, by answering some of My questions first. I think this point will answer that question that you yourself are seeking.

Is there even an end to reach? /... What would truly happen when we get there?

Nothing changes in that we continue to keep changing and learning, the these that we are actually unable to stop doing, but now we are just making life better for ourselves instead of making it worse for our children, and grandchildren, and great grandchildren etc., etc.

Do you not think that a higher level of functioning is completely involved in manifesting all of this?

Yes, but only a 'higher level of functioning' only in the concept of being very accessible and achievable and nothing at all to do with being above or beyond or supernatural or anything that implies an out of reach sense.

Do you think that the physical nature of this world (as it appears) somehow overrides that higher level of functioning?

No i do not think nor see that the physical does override the higher level, HOWEVER, what I do think and see is that the physical nature of this world, namely the brain, certainly tries to override that higher level of functioning, which I will not name now.

You seem to be questing after an ultimate goal? I am not.

That is where I think your personal preconceptions, etc. are trying to take out of context and control what I am actually saying, i.e., I am NOT saying there is an ultimate goal to quest after.

What I do say, however, is if there is an internal WANT inside every person, and if that WANT is the same for EVERY person, then that WANT is a goal of Oneness, which we personally can not NOT want nor take control over, and as such there is this instinctual collective quest that no person could easily free them self of. If that is the case, then there is a Oneness that already has a goal for human beings, which even if they tried to human beings could not NOT achieve it.

Maybe because I've stopped believing that my vision for how the river should flow is somehow a superior vision to what is actually happening.

I found that if something is disbelieved (in) as much as something else is believed (in), then the exact same thing can occur, i.e., the person is unable to find and see more and/or anew.

That doesn't mean that I don't focus on improving things all the time (because I do)... but it's more about the quality of energy in the moment... rather than continually striving toward an ultimate vision of what "needs to be" on the cosmic canvas.

I agree 100%, from what I have seen already so far, that there is no thing that "needs to be" on the cosmic canvas. But to reiterate that does not mean that there may not be something that "needs to be", in the "future", which may be found. We just need to remain open to this fact.

I can envision my own art... and then focus on the energetic quality of the moment, and that appears to ripple fast and far. But again, I'm not trying to control it or determine what "should" be. It appears best to stay out of the way, and not block or manipulate the larger flow -- and instead focus on maintaining my own clarity.

Just maybe, just by doing that, you are in fact actually allowing that larger One to flow through right HERE and right NOW, which may not be fully seen and fully understood, in these writings, until later on.

Do you think you could be looking at what is being accomplished, from a very personal individual view, and thus are only seeing just another individual person "trying" to do just another thing that many people have already tried?

No, I'm not looking at it like that. I'm considering that it's bigger than us, and there's value in our focusing on our own energy vibration, rather than trying to define how things should be.

What do you propose is the 'bigger', and, what do you propose is the 'us'? I could assume 'us', to mean human beings, but I just want to make sure with you. I also have a very clear view of what the 'bigger' is but I want to see what your view is and where that view is coming from, exactly?

Ironically... if we stop doing and imposing, and start being and flowing, the universe seems to flow perfectly on all sorts of levels.

Yes this is true on a certain level, a higher level by the way, but on the level that we human beings are on now that sort of reasoning can give every person permission, or an excuse, or a reason to just carry on doing whatever that is that they want to do now, no matter how wrong or abusive that is to them self, to other people or to any other thing, including the environment, itself.

What we are capable of seeing at any given moment, is not all there is to see -- so, I think it's valuable not to take any particular image (we may see) too seriously... rather, perhaps, admire (and learn to love) the artwork.

But there are some things, which I do not like, and wish to change. For example people abusing. Although I can and do accept what they do because I fully understand WHY they abuse, but I certainly do not want to just "sit back", as they say, and just admire nor love that type of "artwork".

Could that very individualistic point of view you have be stopping you from seeing that what is actually being achieved is coming from Oneness, It Self, and not just from any one or any group of people?

No. I DO see/respect a flow of oneness and complete connectivity, and that steers me away from thinking that we must involve ourselves with driving ultimate changes that we think need to be reached within the oneness. Oneness contains ALL of it... naturally.

Fair enough, but do you really think Oneness, It Self, would not be the Driver driving ALL things along, and drive them all along to get along with every other thing as the One Self does It Self. Would not the Oneness be driving all of us human being to not be abusive, by "nature", and that it is our individual selves that is ignoring this fact and which is continually driving us to do wrong in order so that we individually can gain more?

Our, human beings, abusive behavior can not and will not stop unless we all personally accept and take responsibility for doing all of the abusive things that we all do, and share in doing.

Oneness contains ALL of it, including all our wrong doing, but I have already explained WHY human beings have had to experience abuse and then do abuse. This abuse is also a natural part of living and experiencing, and then learning and knowing. HOWEVER, if abuse if left to continue, then that species causing the abuse could and will most likely then be wiped out, which to Oneness is of no great loss really, but, by nature, if Oneness brings or allows a species to come into existence, then It would mostly try to keep that and every species alive, if it is needed, and especially a species that has the capability to learn, understand and reason HOW and WHY it is far better to live peacefully in harmony with every other thing else then it is to keep abusing and wiping itself out completely. A truly intelligent species, which can learn, understand and reason any and every thing, may in fact come in handy for Oneness, It Self, to actually learn about It's Self.

[Lacewing]

Oh my, Ken... your comments and questions draw me in, but I'm starting to feel at a loss in explaining my perspective further. I've put forth a lot, already, which... I think would have been understood more easily than it has, if we were inclined that way.

It appears to Me also that you keep persisting with statements like, "It's not about reaching an ultimate truth or an end." Even though I have never mentioned anything like this you keep writing this. Do you think reaching an ultimate truth or an end is really anything that I am about here?

I say it because it is such a common component of people's beliefs and perspectives -- and yes, I say it also because you've mentioned many times an idea about everyone agreeing on a single truth. Even though you may not consider that a "final" destination, it is still an "ultimate truth" and "an end point" to be reached. Right?

What I do say, however, is if there is an internal WANT inside every person, and if that WANT is the same for EVERY person, then that WANT is a goal that we personally can not NOT want or take control over, and as such there is this instinctual collective quest that no person could easily free them self of. If that is the case, then there is a Oneness that already has a goal for human beings, which even if they tried to human beings could not NOT achieve it.

This is a whole lot of "ifs" that make sense to you... but it may not be a focus for other people. I've tried to express what I see too. And I think we're just going to each see what we see, and proceed based on that.

Maybe because I've stopped believing that my vision for how the river should flow is somehow a superior vision to what is actually happening.

I found that if something is disbelieved (in) as much as something else is believed (in), then the exact same thing can occur, i.e., the person is unable to find and see more and/or anew.

I think you really stepped over the point I was trying to make here. I could have easily used a different word than "believing" (and in fact, something told me not to use it, but I did anyway). Perhaps change the word "believing" to "insisting", and see if you get anything different from the sentence and/or if you feel inclined to respond the same way?

I can envision my own art... and then focus on the energetic quality of the moment, and that appears to ripple fast and far. But again, I'm not trying to control it or determine what "should" be. It appears best to stay out of the way, and not block or manipulate the larger flow -- and instead focus on maintaining my own clarity.

Just maybe, just by doing that, you are in fact actually allowing that larger One to flow right HERE and NOW, which will be seen and fully understood in these writings, later on.

Ken, that is exactly what seems to be happening. Are you really not seeing from my writing that this is what I'm seeing and expressing?

What do you propose is the 'bigger', and, what do you propose is the 'us'? I could assume 'us', to mean human beings, but I just want to make sure with you. I also have a very clear view of what the 'bigger' is but I want to see your view and where you are coming from with that view?

Yes, that's it, Ken. I'm sorry but I feel like I've already explained it so much. I can't keep going over and over it.

Ironically... if we stop doing and imposing, and start being and flowing, the universe seems to flow perfectly on all sorts of levels.

Yes this is true on a certain level, a higher level by the way, but on the level that we human beings are on now that sort of reasoning can give every person permission or a excuse or reason to carry on doing whatever that is that they want to do, no matter how wrong or abusive that is to them self, other people or things, and/or to the environment itself.

It seems to me that you're mixing levels again. If you keep doing this, I think you dilute the clarity of the collective/broader level.

What we are capable of seeing at any given moment, is not all there is to see -- so, I think it's valuable not to take any particular image (we may see) too seriously... rather, perhaps, admire (and learn to love) the artwork.

But there are some things, which I do not like, and wish to change. For example people abusing. Although I can and do accept what they do because I fully understand WHY they abuse, but I certainly do not want to just "sit back", as they say, and just admire nor love that type of artwork.

Mixing levels. From a broader level, yes you can see and love the beauty and perfection of all that is as it is. If you want to keep delving back into the human drama level to wrestle and argue with it, then do so. But I cannot keep doing that in the way that you do. They are two different channels... and although they're on the same "TV", they're difficult to watch or make sense of at the same time. If I'm talking about one channel, and you switch it, I can't keep spending the energy to point that out and explain the differences I see between the channels. Does that make sense to you? It's just not where my energy feels drawn to, Ken.

do you really think Oneness, It Self, would not be the Driver driving ALL things...

Yes, I agree with this part...

to be get along with every other thing, and thus not be abusive, by "nature"?

This, however, is your own idea of how it should be. IF the ONE IS TRULY driving ALL things... ALL things includes supposed abuse and all the other horrors we can imagine. From my perspective, it's ALL creative POSSIBILITY, which is magnificent... and it's not significant beyond our earthly experience. This is a really intense movie... flashing by on a screen. It's vivid, it's engaging, it's realistic, and amazing! When considering all the strife and vast variety of experiences in the world, I've often said: "What else would infinite creative energy do?" Perhaps every potential is explore and expressed! And there's no significance.

Our, human beings, abusive behavior can not and will not stop unless we all personally accept and take responsibility for doing all of the abusive things that we all do and share.

Of course. I agree! I tend to think that the way this will happen (since it hasn't happened yet with everybody screaming about it and insisting on how to do it) is simply through a change in our vibration... personally and collectively. And the only place that any of us have the ability to achieve such a thing is with ourselves. I don't think we can really tell another person how to do it. Rather, we can demonstrate that IT CAN BE DONE simply through our own being. Then, like little switches across an intricately connected network, more may start flipping! Physically arguing and wrestling with better and better arguments changes nothing. Although fun and entertaining, it simply remains in the stew pot, adding more/new ingredients.

if abuse if left to continue, then that species causing the abuse will then be wiped out, which to Oneness is of no great loss or not, but, by nature, Oneness would try to keep every species,

Yep, to the first part... and no, to the last part. You are imposing an idea of what Oneness would do. This is why (I think), you keep mixing the channels/levels... because you really are trying to apply human/individual logic to such a different realm. Which again is ironic considering you're trying to establish a language that distinguishes them! All I can say at this point is: Keep doing what makes sense to you! But please understand that it does not make sense to me... and (at this point) I've devoted all the energy I can to sorting through the differences and misunderstandings. I appreciate the effort you have put into it too! Good luck to you in your explorations!

[sthitapragya]

if abuse if left to continue, then that species causing the abuse will then be wiped out, which to Oneness is of no great loss or not, but, by nature, Oneness would try to keep every species,

99.9% of all species ever created are extinct. If Oneness is trying to keep every species, it is failing miserably.

[Dontaskme]

We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

Greta...can you please stop talking to me now. We have absolutely nothing in common with each other whatsoever. I feel like a fish out of water discussing anything with you. You are an educated person there is no doubt about that, this is so obvious.

While you are educated.. I am illiterate by my own admission, I'm not into intellectualism, but this does not mean I'm not intelligent, intelligence is not defined by how educated one is...intelligence runs much deeper than that.

I have never been able to live in the adult world, it's too mentally perplexing for this one - I'm just a simple pious peasant. I do not understand the world of grown-ups... the adult mind is sick .. the adult mind has abused me all my life, I detest humans...they're not to my taste, they are disgusting creatures disguised as happy,smiley shiny, pearly white teethed hero's ...while underneath they are full of secret evil agendas.. ...there I said it.

Now please don't reply...if you do I will just ignore you. I'm just a child, please leave me alone, or I will ring child-line for support.


Honor a child, and he will honor you.God conceals himself from the mind of man, but reveals himself to his heart.

[Dontaskme]

Truth is only truly known WHEN EVERYONE is in agreement on what the Truth is.

Ken, do you honestly believe that's ever going to happen?

WHEN EVERYONE is in agreement on what the Truth is..

But wouldn't that just cause an imbalance within consciousness?

What about the blind men and the elephant aspect?

Can subjective truths collectively be agreed upon?




On the other hand...


"Behind it all is surely an idea so simple, so beautiful, that when we grasp it - in a decade, a century, or a millennium - we will all say to each other, how could it have been otherwise? How could we have been so stupid?"...John Archibald Wheeler

[Dontaskme]

More mental chatter!!!

That which is outside remains outside. That which is Outside can never be In ..for there is no room in here for two. - Dam

It’s better to have a thousand enemies outside of the tent than one inside the tent. - Arabian Proverb

[Dontaskme]

99.9% of all species ever created are extinct. If Oneness is trying to keep every species, it is failing miserably.

No thing was ever created. Except a dream image.

Only the mind is born. and the mind is suffering.


http://i.imgur.com/6ZTftxm.jpg

[Dontaskme]

you decided you didn't want to talk about it anymore... to such a degree that it's like it no longer existed, and then I was kind of attacked for suggesting that it did.

That's the beauty of not living in the mental chatter of the mind... I can observe the mental activity without attaching to it, so everything just seems to pass straight through like it never happened, that's what happens to people who choose to live in the no mind of pure awareness.

I'm familiar with what you speak of.

I would NOT say that this interaction demonstrated the "beauty" of it, though -- rather, something else. If we consider that you were snapping at me for "inexplicably" talking about education, when my post clearly SHOWED that I was directly responding to things you had said -- and then you told me not to talk to you if I couldn't stay on topic -- well, that's not exactly demonstrating a heightened state of clarity or awareness, right? So, honestly, doesn't this seem more like the ego didn't want to talk about it anymore?

You may not want to talk about the past... and just move forward... but if you're not aware of what you're doing and leaving behind and handing to others, doesn't that matter? This isn't all about you (or any of us), right?

I'm wary of a lot of people these days who get really high and fast on some supposed dose of "broader awareness". They are ready to tell everyone else how it is (based on their particular perspective), and thereby catapulting themselves into a position of higher authority (which they usually want recognition for). There's something about that, that seems really wrong to me; I suspect that the human ego is quick to go along for the ride, hiding in the backseat. It seems dangerous and often delusional. Across our landscape/reality, it's as if a new battlefield is being set up for the mini-gods to stake their claims... and there are so many of them!

I think we have to be careful, especially since we can see our power and realize that it can be used for ANYTHING (awareness does not automatically make a person "good"). Responsibility and self-clarity becomes more important than ever. I think we may have to maintain a position outside of ourselves (so-to-speak) to watch ourselves and keep our multi-faceted selves in check... Yes?

Yes.

But first you must spend enough time in solitude, and figure out who you are, until you develop the ability to arrange your thoughts in such a way it prepares you, for when the time comes, to meet the mind of another.

( two minds can never meet)...this is about getting your own house in order before stepping outside to face the lions den of other. Only when you've mastered, know your own mind, have you mastered other.

No one has a monopoly on compassion. We must all do our own nobody home work and understand that when we calm our mind the peace automatically shines through. And a calm mind is a beautiful mind.

Ultimately we are all one awareness, in which all experiences arise and fall. All Our experiences are uniquely different, but our core essence never changes. I can never access your experience and you can never access mine. So it's pointless to even try to mentally understand each other, but we can be present with each other which has a kind of mutual understanding beyond mental mind games and words, it's the peace that passes all mental understanding.

Often people are afraid of awkward silences between them self and other, simply because they believe there is a person inside of them and another person inside other, they are not familiar with the true nature of their real self which is the silent still awareness that looks on in blissful detachment at all mental chatter..this self doesn't own anything, it's boundless and free, it is unconditional love...where no other resides, it is one with itself always. It / this is pure beingness ...in the arms of the beloved. You are so loved. Our thoughts are like dark passing clouds in an empty sky. Our sky is what matters, not our thoughts.

When we allow others to be exactly who they are, to let them be, to let them go...we are allowing our self same in exact same moment.

sorry I'm getting carried away again.... I can't help myself, my mouth overflows what my heart is full of...

[ken]

Oh my, Ken... your comments and questions draw me in, but I'm starting to feel at a loss in explaining my perspective further. I've put forth a lot, already, which... I think would have been understood more easily than it has, if we were inclined that way.

I have understood all that you have had to say. I only look like I do not understand because I ask very simple and straight forward clarifying questions. This is the result of being a very simple person and thus not assuming nor believing (in) anything.

It appears to Me also that you keep persisting with statements like, "It's not about reaching an ultimate truth or an end." Even though I have never mentioned anything like this you keep writing this. Do you think reaching an ultimate truth or an end is really anything that I am about here?

I say it because it is such a common component of people's beliefs and perspectives --

What other people belief and perceive would be best left at that and not be confused with anything I say or do.

and yes, I say it also because you've mentioned many times an idea about everyone agreeing on a single truth.

What I mention is seriously NOT about everyone agreeing on a single truth. It is about THAT, what everyone happens to agree upon. This NOT about searching for and finding what we all agree upon, but what we already commonly share and collectively agree with. THAT, what we All commonly share and agree with is obviously a single truth, for the very fact that there is no one disagreeing.

Even though you may not consider that a "final" destination, it is still an "ultimate truth" and "an end point" to be reached. Right?

No, not at all. For example let us say every person is agreeing that the sun revolves earth. If EVERY person is in agreement, then by definition there is no person saying other wise, therefore this is a single truth. However, because if people start believing or disbelieving (in) something, even if everyone is in agreement, then this will prevent those people from learning more and anew, when that knowledge comes along. So, even if every person is in total agreement that the sun revolves the earth, it is better if every person always remains open to the fact that this may not be absolute and ultimate unchangeable truth. If just one person comes along with another way of looking at this, then if others are open they would be able to see where the one is coming from, thus new or more knowledge can not and will not be obtained. For example that just maybe the opposite in true and that earth revolves the sun. So in this fashion of always remaining open there is certainly NO final destination, NO ultimate truth, and/nor NO and end point to be reached. I thought I, but obviously I had not, made this clear previously.

What I do say, however, is if there is an internal WANT inside every person, and if that WANT is the same for EVERY person, then that WANT is a goal that we personally can not NOT want or take control over, and as such there is this instinctual collective quest that no person could easily free them self of. If that is the case, then there is a Oneness that already has a goal for human beings, which even if they tried to human beings could not NOT achieve it.

This is a whole lot of "ifs" that make sense to you... but it may not be a focus for other people.

Of course it is not a focus for some other people. ALL people can be focusing on completely different things. But that does not take away from the fact that what I just pointed could in fact be truth. It is this simple if every person once in their lives WANTED to live in peace and harmony, then there is an internal WANT inside every person, which is commonly shared and agreed upon, and this WANT could be the exact same drive, from the Driver of Oneness.

Some adults will say that they do not want peace and harmony but no person could say that there was not point in their lives a time when they were focusing on WANTING to live in peace and harmony. What people will try to override with their own individual thinking and beliefs will never override their true desires and potential. The desire to come together as One and react and behave as One, can and never will be overridden by individual human being pretense.

I've tried to express what I see too. And I think we're just going to each see what we see, and proceed based on that.

But what you see is people put the individual in the way of Oneness, right?

I see if people disregard the individual completely, then Oneness flows and shines through so easily and unadulterated. I see that Oneness is NOT found or got to or allowed to appear by and through what people individually think is right but by and through 'what is', coincidentally, what people collectively know is right.

I think you are always seeing that whatever human beings say or write will and is always distorting what Oneness is doing.

Maybe because I've stopped believing that my vision for how the river should flow is somehow a superior vision to what is actually happening.

I found that if something is disbelieved (in) as much as something else is believed (in), then the exact same thing can occur, i.e., the person is unable to find and see more and/or anew.

I think you really stepped over the point I was trying to make here. I could have easily used a different word than "believing" (and in fact, something told me not to use it, but I did anyway). Perhaps change the word "believing" to "insisting", and see if you get anything different from the sentence and/or if you feel inclined to respond the same way?

I still want to respond the same way. I was not really interested in your use of the word 'believe' here. I was merely trying to point that maybe you might have done a complete turn around and gone from one "extreme" to the other. Instead of believing that your vision for how the river should flow is somehow a superior vision to what is actually happening, now you might be disbelieving that your vision has any influence at all or any matter of importance at all to or in what is actually happening?

Just something to think about.


I am in total agreement in that an individual person nearly always prevents the superior river of Oneness flowing freely but I am also open to the idea that through people the river of Oneness may flow and be seen.

Whereas you seem to be rejecting this idea altogether. Maybe I am wrong here?

I have NEVER given a vision/view of how the river should flow. I have especially NEVER given a view from a personal individual level also. Oneness's view is all about what everyone shares and could agree with. Only from this vision I write.

I can envision my own art... and then focus on the energetic quality of the moment, and that appears to ripple fast and far. But again, I'm not trying to control it or determine what "should" be. It appears best to stay out of the way, and not block or manipulate the larger flow -- and instead focus on maintaining my own clarity.

Just maybe, just by doing that, you are in fact actually allowing that larger One to flow right HERE and NOW, which will be seen and fully understood in these writings, later on.

Ken, that is exactly what seems to be happening. Are you really not seeing from my writing that this is what I'm seeing and expressing?

Yes I can see this, but i think at another higher level there is a further understanding that you are missing out on. This understanding comes from a deeper level from within, by just opening up a bit more and allowing this deeper truer Self to flow and be revealed, you will gain a better and fully understanding.

What do you propose is the 'bigger', and, what do you propose is the 'us'? I could assume 'us', to mean human beings, but I just want to make sure with you. I also have a very clear view of what the 'bigger' is but I want to see your view and where you are coming from with that view?

Yes, that's it, Ken. I'm sorry but I feel like I've already explained it so much. I can't keep going over and over it.

If you are unable to better explain things, then fair enough. I will just take 'bigger' and 'us' to mean what i think is meant.

I, on the other hand, what to keep explaining and expressing all of 'what is' so that it all can be fully understood.

This is exactly why I am searching for definitions and language to use that will prevent any person from having to assume again what is meant by another, once and for all. If there are no assumptions being made, nor beliefs being held, then their is only One Being of openness flowing as One.

Ironically... if we stop doing and imposing, and start being and flowing, the universe seems to flow perfectly on all sorts of levels.

Yes this is true on a certain level, a higher level by the way, but on the level that we human beings are on now that sort of reasoning can give every person permission or a excuse or reason to carry on doing whatever that is that they want to do, no matter how wrong or abusive that is to them self, other people or things, and/or to the environment itself.

It seems to me that you're mixing levels again. If you keep doing this, I think you dilute the clarity of the collective/broader level.

But when I ask you to better clarify this 'bigger/broader/higher' level you are unable to do so. So, clarity is being diluted this way.

But we, human beings, can not just sit up on this higher level pretending that everything is just fine, down below, when what we are actually thinking and doing is down at much lower abusive level. The way that stops the unhealthy level from happening again and brings everyone up to a much higher weller level needs to be expressed and learned in order for all to stay up on the collective higher level.

All the signs are here pointing to all people to just accept you are doing wrong, and then also showing how to take responsibility for that wrong doing, but even with all the signage and the internal tutor and guider, speaking Truth all the time people will just not stop doing and imposing. The obvious of this Oneness is so bright, it may to blinding, but if you could just explain why you yourself do not stop doing and imposing and instead just start being and flowing properly, then maybe that would help Me in learning what new signs to show.

What we are capable of seeing at any given moment, is not all there is to see -- so, I think it's valuable not to take any particular image (we may see) too seriously... rather, perhaps, admire (and learn to love) the artwork.

But there are some things, which I do not like, and wish to change. For example people abusing. Although I can and do accept what they do because I fully understand WHY they abuse, but I certainly do not want to just "sit back", as they say, and just admire nor love that type of artwork.

Mixing levels.

What is wrong with mixing levels, exactly, if I am just jumping or changing from one level to another? If I understand every and all levels, then I can mix/jump up and down without any trouble at all. In fact to be able to see and understand ALL meaningful things about life, a perspective from ALL levels is needed to be looked at, continuously.

If, however, by 'mixing levels' you mean I am getting confused, then how do you propose this is happening if you are unable to explain the levels clearly and concisely?

From a broader level, yes you can see and love the beauty and perfection of all that is as it is.

Is remaining at that broader level and just seeing the love and the beauty and perfection of all that is as it is, just one of the ways that allows your to keep abusing others as you are doing right now? Are there any consequences whatsoever whilst you just sit at and remain looking from this broader level?

If you want to keep delving back into the human drama level to wrestle and argue with it, then do so.

I am not wrestling with the human level with a win-lose approach. I am learning far more, from this human "drama" level, which I am on right here and now in this forum, about how to express how to uplift one's self from this lower level up to a much more understanding and much better preferred level than I ever could by just sitting up higher and looking down.

'Arguing', or logical reasoning, with human beings is a great way to learn how to express better. In fact through logical reasoning sound, valid arguments can, are, and have been made, and from a sound, valid argument no dispute could be made. If every person could agree, then there is no person who could disagree, and from vantage point far, far more can and will be seen. So, delving back, as you say, and arguing I find very rewarding.

But I cannot keep doing that in the way that you do. They are two different channels... and although they're on the same "TV", they're difficult to watch or make sense of at the same time.

Really is that how it is for you, from a personal individual level. Thanks for that information.

I find that jumping between ALL the channels and levels so very easy and simple it is not like I am even changing the channels at all.

If I'm talking about one channel, and you switch it, I can't keep spending the energy to point that out and explain the differences I see between the channels. Does that make sense to you?

Yes of course.

I was just mistaken in thinking that you also could easily notice the difference in channels and change between them just as quickly and easily whilst being always aware of all the differences on each channel anyway.

I have just learned that I have to take this much, much slower, whilst explaining in very minor detail at what level I am talking about while clarifying ALL of the different points and points of view that are on each level, than I have previously realized.

It's just not where my energy feels drawn to, Ken.

That is okay and perfectly acceptable.

do you really think Oneness, It Self, would not be the Driver driving ALL things...

Yes, I agree with this part...

So, this could explain lacewing's desire to want to write and express in order to be heard better. Could all 'we', human beings, be driven by a desire to be heard and listened to in order to be recognized and accepted for who we really are, who/whatever that may be?

Is it possible that actually Oneness, It Self, also has a desire to be heard and listened to in order to be recognized and accepted for who/what It really is?

I, tell you what, I sure know how lonely it is up HERE at the highest of levels finally knowing who 'I' am, but sitting HERE all alone, watching the movie being played out having and no other to share it with.

to be get along with every other thing, and thus not be abusive, by "nature"?

This, however, is your own idea of how it should be.

Again you have put what could well be easily a Universal Oneness perspective and believe that it is solely one person's individual idea of how it should be.

I think a belief is really getting in the way here.

IF the ONE IS TRULY driving ALL things... ALL things includes supposed abuse and all the other horrors we can imagine. From my perspective, it's ALL creative POSSIBILITY, which is magnificent...

So you will just keep abusing others because that is 'what is', is this right?

You will just keep watching the movie and playing your part in that movie even if that kind of acting could cause the movie to come to a crashing end? Would you or would you not like to be a part of making the movie better?

and it's not significant beyond our earthly experience.

If you are up to answering this, what, exactly, is not significant beyond our earthly experience?

This is a really intense movie... flashing by on a screen. It's vivid, it's engaging, it's realistic, and amazing! When considering all the strife and vast variety of experiences in the world, I've often said: "What else would infinite creative energy do?" Perhaps every potential is explore and expressed! And there's no significance.

And just maybe that infinite creative energy will guide and drive you accepting and taking responsibility for that wrong doing you have continually been doing. You know for a fact that unless you want to change, then nothing else can change you. And, a Oneness energy would not want you to change that good and right part of you, It would only want you to change that bad and wrong doing part of you. But no one can help you unless you want to help yourself. Oneness energy points you in the right direction and guides you will all the signposts in and of life, but what you want to and choose to do is solely your choice and your choice along. So, if you want to continue doing wrong and abusing others but just continue to tell yourself that you are just watching the movie and being and flowing with Oneness, then so be it. BUT, Oneness KNOWS 'what really is', and not what you think 'what is'.

Our, human beings, abusive behavior can not and will not stop unless we all personally accept and take responsibility for doing all of the abusive things that we all do and share.

Of course. I agree! I tend to think that the way this will happen (since it hasn't happened yet with everybody screaming about it and insisting on how to do it) is simply through a change in our vibration... personally and collectively.

But you also insist on you yourself not changing because that is part of 'what is'?

You have just (tried to) justify to yourself that you are just flowing with 'what is'. BUT the real and true Self, knows what is really happening here.

And the only place that any of us have the ability to achieve such a thing is with ourselves.

Which if ourselves and the role we play is 'what is', then why would we want to change anything, right?

I don't think we can really tell another person how to do it. Rather, we can demonstrate that IT CAN BE DONE simply through our own being.

But if your own being is, not changing for the better and, just sitting by, watching the movie, and doing 'what is' whenever you want, then really that being is not demonstrating any thing other than showing that continually abusing others is 'what is' and what effect this has on harming and damaging others and the environment is 'what is'.

Then, like little switches across an intricately connected network, more may start flipping! Physically arguing and wrestling with better and better arguments changes nothing. Although fun and entertaining, it simply remains in the stew pot, adding more/new ingredients.

Just sitting around, abusing others while watching a movie is also only adding more stress and confusion to the pot.

if abuse if left to continue, then that species causing the abuse will then be wiped out, which to Oneness is of no great loss or not, but, by nature, Oneness would try to keep every species,

Yep, to the first part... and no, to the last part.

So, you really do not care at all if your continual abusive behaviors could lead to further harm and damage, suffering and pain, and/or an earlier end of the human being species?

You are imposing an idea of what Oneness would do.

I might be, but then again I might not be. I might just be speaking perfectly from and for Oneness, It Self. People will only know, If I am or if I am not, if and when they reach that highest of broadest levels, which you yourself say you sit at idly by and watch down from, without ever even attempting to play any true part of Oneness, It Self.

What I can see now is you are just another one trying to appear as though you know what you are actually talking about in relation to The One and only, but in fact are not really able to give any further light on this subject to others.

You want to appear as though you speak from the broadest of levels with Oneness, which a lot of what you say does that, but when it comes down to helping others your answers to clarifying questions is not really doing it. If people can not see and understand what you say from just your words, then they want to see and understand how it possibly could with and from scientific experiential methods.

This is why (I think), you keep mixing the channels/levels... because you really are trying to apply human/individual logic to such a different realm.

There is NO different realm to Oneness, only human beings see and make things differently. Just like there is absolutely no problems in Life, only human beings see and make problems.

I keep changing levels in order to speak from and on each of those levels.

Unless you can speak from the level of Oneness and for this Self, then just maybe parts of human/individual logic also fits in perfectly. You will NEVER know until you are sitting at that level.

Which again is ironic considering you're trying to establish a language that distinguishes them!

Why does it appear ironic to you?

I, by the way, find it funny that language is used to describe and distinguish absolutely everything but when people do not have the right language to distinguish things apart, then they think, that in of itself, means language can not describe and distinguish absolutely every thing.

If and when I find the right language I will be the firs to let you know.

All I can say at this point is: Keep doing what makes sense to you! But please understand that it does not make sense to me...

YET.

And, that is perfectly understandable as I have yet to find and formulate the right language.

and (at this point) I've devoted all the energy I can to sorting through the differences and misunderstandings.

To the best of your ability from the level you are at. This again is perfectly and totally understandable.

I appreciate the effort you have put into it too! Good luck to you in your explorations!

Thanks for the discussion also. It was great. But if this is as far as you can go, then that is 'what is'. You are still far from full understanding but at least you have have got this far. Most people can not and do not get to this level. Most people, in fact, can not even get to any level past what they believe.

[Greta]

I'm just a simple pious peasant. I do not understand the world of grown-ups... the adult mind is sick .. the adult mind has abused me all my life, I detest humans...they're not to my taste, they are disgusting creatures disguised as happy,smiley shiny, pearly white teethed hero's ...while underneath they are full of secret evil agendas.. ...there I said it.

Now please don't reply...if you do I will just ignore you. I'm just a child, please leave me alone, or I will ring child-line for support.

Oh diddums. Plenty of us have been abused. Welcome to the maelstrom.

Your fragility is hardly an advertisement for "lack of mental chatter". It would seem that the right kind of "mental chatter" can promote resilience.