Professional tyranny

[Greta]

D-d-d-d-dalek, if I spent decades seriously engaged in an area I'd be leery of challenges from amateurs too. Then again, philosophy is such a woolly and readily-contestable field that doesn't have "truths" as firm as the sciences or maths. I can imagine that relying on such a flaky field to pay the bills would be a precarious existence needing to be bolstered by bravado. After all, it's perfectly possible that a novice with a single great insight could render decades of a professional philosophers' work redundant or even obsolete.

Why did he try to discourage any challenge to his position? Maybe it's an emotionally inspired belief and he's not confident explaining himself? Maybe he was feeling unwell or tired and not up to debating the point? He might have explained his many position times and bored with it. Maybe his explanation would be necessarily long and tortuous and he couldn't be bothered going into detail or didn't have time?

I'm not sure about intrinsic value because our understanding of reality is so incomplete. In terms of value, the assumed hard barrier between human minds and other natural dynamics may be an unbalanced perspective based on our self-focus, giving insufficient due to the continuum of intermediate states that lie between the adult human consciousness and inorganic chemical reactions.

[Dalek Prime]

Greta, he loves to speak, and time has never stopped him from doing so. Neither, I believe, has illness. He knew what I meant by intrinsic value, and without telling me why, dismissed my view of mind creating value as silly. And would not respond to my asking what gives a rock value. I think he wants me to accept it for other reasons pertaining to my antinatalism. ie. If there is intrinsic value in everything, nothing can be dismissed as irrelevant, including existence, even to a potential.

Now please note, I don't dismiss intrinsic value based on my antinatalism, but on my honest belief that value is given by mind. And this fellow, telling me to accept intrinsic value, is no different from a theist asking an atheist to accept God. (He's a Sufi, btw, and already accepts things I cannot possibly imagine accepting.) He's too open minded, almost, to make up his own mind.

[A_Seagull]

A friend who is a lecturer in philosophy, all but told me I had to accept the concept of intrinsic value. And he was rather vehement about it. Now, I am a firm believer in value given only via the mind; that a rock, of its own accord, has none.

.

IMO Professional philosophers are teachers and not really philosophers at all, (or at least they don't need to be).

When one is asked to take things on faith one leaves the domain of philosophy and enters the domain of religion.

[Dalek Prime]

This is a general post of admission on my part.

I really do believe that I have thought my philosophy through to the best of 'my' limited ability. And while I love to think that I'm right, and have the 'secrets of the universe' as I see them, if I ever discovered a flaw in it, I would, by my own nature, reject it. I know myself to well to fool myself, or want to do so.

But there's a very human part of me that says 'you're just some random person. How can you possibly be right, amongst the billions of this planet, many much more thoughtful than myself.' And I'm always waiting for that proof to come. I'm hoping that I'm not so stubborn that I couldn't accept correction, should it ever come. Being a true fool would be much worse than than admitting I'm wrong, and not being able to move on to truth. I'd vastly prefer the truth from someone else, than falsehood from my own mind.

There's my confession, as honest as it ever can be.

[Dalek Prime]

A friend who is a lecturer in philosophy, all but told me I had to accept the concept of intrinsic value. And he was rather vehement about it. Now, I am a firm believer in value given only via the mind; that a rock, of its own accord, has none.

.

IMO Professional philosophers are teachers and not really philosophers at all, (or at least they don't need to be).

When one is asked to take things on faith one leaves the domain of philosophy and enters the domain of religion.

I agree. I have big issues with acceptance of 'truths', having a firm belief in only the most basic and tangible; my thought, and things I percieve, that have persistence. I can't accept anything else. Though, in the case of 'god', I may hold a inkling or hope of 'him', but whether god or not, that doesn't impact my philosophy, as it has to do with preference of existence. No matter how I came to be, I prefer not to have been.

[thedoc]

I would think that any value would be determined by who or what it is valuable to. Certainly some green plants have value as food to many herbivores, and those herbivores would have the same value to some carnivores. I suppose some could consider that as intrinsic value but it could also be considered as assigned value by the creature in question. The green plants would have no direct value to a carnivore, except that they sustain it's prey. There is very little that has the same value to a human, but much that has been assigned value for other than sustaining life, mostly because humans find it pretty.

[Dalek Prime]

Doc, you're back. Nice to hear from you.

[thedoc]

Being a professional is no guarantee of being correct. I discovered in HS that some teachers didn't have all the answers, this was reinforced in college, again when I was teaching, and then several times when I was working in the commercial world after I quit teaching. I'm using the term "professional" here in the sense that you are getting paid for doing what you do. I seem to have a good memory for details, and can bring in knowledge from other areas to apply to a current problem. I've gotten in trouble with "superiors" a few times for that, After awhile I learned to keep my mouth shut, and let others make their own mistakes.

[thedoc]

Doc, you're back. Nice to hear from you.

Thankyou, I needed a break, It got to the point where I just got tired arguing with others, and on another forum it turned out that I was wrong.

[Dalek Prime]

Doc, you're back. Nice to hear from you.

Thankyou, I needed a break, It got to the point where I just got tired arguing with others, and on another forum it turned out that I was wrong.

So, you've cheated on us with another forum? Hope you wore a condom, and aren't bringing any nasties back lol!

As to my OP, I honestly cannot envision intrinsic value. That it existed before mind. That mind does not embue things with value.

[Dalek Prime]

Being a professional is no guarantee of being correct. I discovered in HS that some teachers didn't have all the answers, this was reinforced in college, again when I was teaching, and then several times when I was working in the commercial world after I quit teaching. I'm using the term "professional" here in the sense that you are getting paid for doing what you do. I seem to have a good memory for details, and can bring in knowledge from other areas to apply to a current problem. I've gotten in trouble with "superiors" a few times for that, After awhile I learned to keep my mouth shut, and let others make their own mistakes.

He makes me want to shut up and not talk about philosophy, because he can argue me under the table. But I know he's not right either, and that the conversation was nothing near fair, or a learning experience. I'm not saying I think he's right, though he made me wonder for a bit. But he knows how to argue his subject, that I don't stand a chance. And at worst, can claim 'expertise', should he fail.

Shit. All I wanted was a friend who could show me more about a subject I'm interested in. Instead, I found a teacher who tells me how wrong I am, without listening to what I'm trying to say, as though what I say cannot possibly matter.

[thedoc]

Doc, you're back. Nice to hear from you.

Thankyou, I needed a break, It got to the point where I just got tired arguing with others, and on another forum it turned out that I was wrong.

So, you've cheated on us with another forum? Hope you wore a condom, and aren't bringing any nasties back lol!

As to my OP, I honestly cannot envision intrinsic value. That it existed before mind. That mind does not embue things with value.

Yes I must admit that I've been unfaithful, but I tend to go where the action is that catches my interest. I haven't counted how many forums I am registered on, most of them just don't have any threads that I want to read, and several don't have any action at all, as in no new posts for weeks at a time. Right now there's EBay, YouTube, The Model Train forum, Trumpet Masters, Freethought-forum, and this one, and The Couch which is a bit slow. A few seem to be dominated by militant belligerent atheists who take great pleasure in bashing anyone they think is religious, I just don't need the abuse, and they don't seem to be interested in listening to my ideas.

[Dalek Prime]

Well, you've always been kind to me from the get-go, doc, and youre always welcome here. And I know I get worked up and abusive and such, but I will put effort into not being such in future. At least I will try.

[Nick_A]

D P, this person insisting on intrinsic value was probably referring to the Great Chain of Being which is a structure built upon categories of objective intrinsic value. It is the same idea as Plato's relationship between knowledge (wholeness" and opinions (parts-partial truths.) The Great Chain of Being is just more specific. It refers to an objective hierarchical order which makes it politically incorrect but the idea is essential for anyone truing to appreciate the complimentary flows of involution (into creation) and evolution (back to the source) that sustain universal structure.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Great-Chain-of-Being

[thedoc]

Well, you've always been kind to me from the get-go, doc, and youre always welcome here. And I know I get worked up and abusive and such, but I will put effort into not being such in future. At least I will try.

Actually it's OK, just be yourself, I know who you are, and if your were to change I might not recognize you.

"Who are you, and what have you done with DP?"

PS. I like you the way you are, especially when you get all hot and bothered about something. "Exterminate!"

FYI, I know you don't agree with him all the time, but Henry Quirk is my friend, because I know him and trust him, and have for a long time.