There is no logic for a single, separate god

[Greta]

... in order to determine why mankind would think something ultimately significant (and fully complete without parts) exists separately and outside of all else. What is this desire to separate?

In contrast, why would a god not be completely functional and evolving WITHIN the system? How is that not powerful enough? Why do we think being separate is more powerful? Again, it appears to me that framing god in this way reflects a resistance to life/nature... and a desire for detachment from it... and the fantasy of superior control over all.

Having such a god, seems to make one a god themselves.

I think the separation aspect was a post hoc rationalisation after science kept disproving all of the Abrahamics' physical claims. JC said that God is within, which is the opposite to the disconnected God that some probably hoped would be exempted from scientific analysis.

[Lacewing]

I think the separation aspect was a post hoc rationalisation after science kept disproving all of the Abrahamics' physical claims. JC said that God is within, which is the opposite to the disconnected God that some probably hoped would be exempted from scientific analysis.

Makes sense!

The concept of "god" being within and throughout all, not judging and commanding and creating pie in the sky, but rather dancing and breathing and experiencing through us would be so much more believable. Even then, the conclusion would be (at least for me) that there is no need (or even value) in setting up a separate identity for this concept of "god", because that's what temptingly leads men to assign all sorts of separating characteristics... and to claim to know the "mind" of god... in order to elevate themselves and push their own puny agendas. There are so MANY concepts of god... I think it's more interesting to discuss what is being personally gained from each one... as we clearly aren't talking about a distinct, singular reality.

[Harbal]

What makes you think that God, or religion, will obey the human rules of logic?

If they don't, we are entitled to disregard them.

[thedoc]

What makes you think that God, or religion, will obey the human rules of logic?

If they don't, we are entitled to disregard them.

You may certainly do as you see fit.

[Harbal]

You may certainly do as you see fit.

I don't feel that I have a choice. We depend on Human logic to get through every day of our lives, to arbitrarily abandon it seems more than a little fool hardy to me.

[Greta]

... the conclusion would be (at least for me) that there is no need (or even value) in setting up a separate identity for this concept of "god"...

Yes, separation is not needed. Basically God can be seen as a synonym for "the best in us". Your wise self that is capable of unconditional love, the little parts of us that accepts inconvenient truths without prejudice.

[thedoc]

You may certainly do as you see fit.

I don't feel that I have a choice. We depend on Human logic to get through every day of our lives, to arbitrarily abandon it seems more than a little fool hardy to me.

Things in this world are seldom 'either or' there is usually some kind of gradation from one extreme to the other. I did not suggest that we abandon logic, but it should be applied where appropriate, not every question can be answered with logic. It seems more foolish to think the world is black and white.

[Harbal]

Things in this world are seldom 'either or' there is usually some kind of gradation from one extreme to the other. I did not suggest that we abandon logic, but it should be applied where appropriate, not every question can be answered with logic. It seems more foolish to think the world is black and white.

And where would be appropriate? I don't see why suspending your normal principles of reason, the ones you use to arrive at all your day to day decisions, the ones you use to solve your day to day problems, would be any more appropriate regarding the existence of God than any other thing that goes against the way we understand the World and nature to operate. What criterea do you suggest for determining when it would be appropriate to switch from our normal way of reasoning to reasoning without logic?

[thedoc]

Things in this world are seldom 'either or' there is usually some kind of gradation from one extreme to the other. I did not suggest that we abandon logic, but it should be applied where appropriate, not every question can be answered with logic. It seems more foolish to think the world is black and white.

And where would be appropriate? I don't see why suspending your normal principles of reason, the ones you use to arrive at all your day to day decisions, the ones you use to solve your day to day problems, would be any more appropriate regarding the existence of God than any other thing that goes against the way we understand the World and nature to operate. What criterea do you suggest for determining when it would be appropriate to switch from our normal way of reasoning to reasoning without logic?

I don't believe that logic helps in matters of religion, except to dismiss it and claim that it is wrong and without foundation. For example logic would say that there are no such things as "invisible pink unicorns" but I don't know that, so I don't use logic to prove or disprove it. The idea is amusing and makes me smile.

[Harbal]

I don't believe that logic helps in matters of religion, except to dismiss it and claim that it is wrong and without foundation. For example logic would say that there are no such things as "invisible pink unicorns" but I don't know that, so I don't use logic to prove or disprove it. The idea is amusing and makes me smile.

No, you can't disprove the existence of God with logic but, as I have no interest in disproving it, it isn't an issue for me. There are lots of things that other people believe which I do not have any reason to believe and a belief in God is just one of them. I could quite easily find myself arguing that most religion is ridiculous but I don't argue about whether or not God exists. It's not that I think God doesn't exist, it's that I don't think he does exist, there's a difference.

[thedoc]

I don't believe that logic helps in matters of religion, except to dismiss it and claim that it is wrong and without foundation. For example logic would say that there are no such things as "invisible pink unicorns" but I don't know that, so I don't use logic to prove or disprove it. The idea is amusing and makes me smile.

No, you can't disprove the existence of God with logic but, as I have no interest in disproving it, it isn't an issue for me. There are lots of things that other people believe which I do not have any reason to believe and a belief in God is just one of them. I could quite easily find myself arguing that most religion is ridiculous but I don't argue about whether or not God exists. It's not that I think God doesn't exist, it's that I don't think he does exist, there's a difference.

That's OK, I don't have a problem with that, but I think that there are some ideas that do not work well with logic. If you don't want to consider them, that's OK, just leave it to those who do want to consider them.

[Harbal]

That's OK, I don't have a problem with that, but I think that there are some ideas that do not work well with logic. If you don't want to consider them, that's OK, just leave it to those who do want to consider them.

When people put there views on a forum, other people comment. Isn't that how it works? Actually, people who believe in God and people who don't, shouldn't be allowed to post on the same forum, they are coming from completely different perspectives and neither are ever going to change their minds.

[thedoc]

That's OK, I don't have a problem with that, but I think that there are some ideas that do not work well with logic. If you don't want to consider them, that's OK, just leave it to those who do want to consider them.

When people put there views on a forum, other people comment. Isn't that how it works? Actually, people who believe in God and people who don't, shouldn't be allowed to post on the same forum, they are coming from completely different perspectives and neither are ever going to change their minds.

Yes, people who are firm in their beliefs are probably not going to be swayed, but some are not so firm, and could be swayed by a compelling argument either way. BTW, I have read and heard a lot of Atheists arguing their position and they have failed to move me in my belief, and I don't expect to change anyone's mind, I just state what I believe, and you can take that for what it's worth.

I don't agree that atheists and theists should not be allowed to post on the same forum, how can you make your ideas more firm without hearing opposing points of view. Or are you afraid that your beliefs are so week that the slightest disagreement could sway your position?

[Harbal]

Or are you afraid that your beliefs are so week that the slightest disagreement could sway your position?

I don't have any beliefs regarding God and I''ve never found myself starting to sway on hearing anyone else's. I don't care what you say, you know as well as I do that it is absolutely pointless arguing about the existence of God.

[thedoc]

Or are you afraid that your beliefs are so week that the slightest disagreement could sway your position?

I don't have any beliefs regarding God and I''ve never found myself starting to sway on hearing anyone else's. I don't care what you say, you know as well as I do that it is absolutely pointless arguing about the existence of God.

Unless you have seen the evidence for yourself and have not rejected it.

Whether you admit to a belief about God or not, is not important, you do have some idea about the existence of God, and that is what is important. Call it a belief, or not, as you like.