The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

[Greta]

Well, the fact that you think there is anything other than personal meaning speaks volumes to the romanticism you hold dear, that does not belong in rational philosophy. The rest of your insults can be flushed down the shitter.

Okay, you've had enough. Me too. It's offtopic and just nonsense. There's too many claims of certainty without such certainty being possible at this time.

PS. I did not insult you in that post other than a smackdown for gross crudity, which you thoroughly earned. There is no need to carry on like an oaf just because the mods are laid back/absent.

[Dontaskme]

And philosophy is supposed to be rational, not airy-fairy flights of fantasy.

Life is not a philosophy...life is already truth.

Knowledge is a philosophy, and knowledge is illusory, it is superimposed on reality, it is only through knowledge that we know we are alive. Life in and of itself has no idea it is alive, the body that you believe is yours has no knowledge it is alive. The body is automatically functioning with or without your knowledge of it. Knowledge is a mental construct, aka illusory.

We live a lie which is the only truth to be known. This is not a negative, it's passing through the gateless gate into peace, the peace you have been searching for your whole life, you are it.

Life is not rational...is life being rational when the earthquake kills thousands of people? you have no control or authority to wish for rationality - this is what you have been programmed to believe...that is the bullshit - your belief that there has to be rationality, that's just not what life is. If you insist on there being rationality then you will always be disappointed because there is no such thing except as an idea.

Life has no reason for being...it just is what ever which way it appears....

You cannot put life in a box and archive it away in your slimey little grey cavern of a mind...it will not let you...so let it fly.

[Hobbes' Choice]

with increasing awareness and exploration (more than human knowledge), which eventually led me to a lot of hallucinogenic use in my mid-twenties... further blowing the doors off of this reality.

I've never been happy with this construction.
As if dropping pills to alter the meticulously evolved equipment of perception and cognition would lead to a deeper, or more clear view of reality?
I've had Psilocybin; MDMA; Lysergic ACID; a range and comprehensive list of cannabis based drugs; morphine, opium, and a selection of its derivatives, a multitude of "speed" type drugs including coke and crack; alcohol, and stuff I can't remember.
Whilst I agree that taking drugs can lift you out of a complacent and overly structured way of thinking to open up your mind to new ideas, it is really only on sober and mature reflection that any use can be made of these experiences.
There is no path to greater awareness through the use of hallucinogenic drugs; but only through reflexive sobriety.
Drugs impair reason, art, music, and most activity. You really have to wait till the effects die down that you can make use of them.

I'm totally on the same page as you on this, Hobbes. Altering reality perception gives you... *drum roll*... unreality. What a surprise, eh? There's nothing I took away from psychedelic experiences, save the knowledge of what it is like to be under the influence of said drugs. Which is useful if you ever get drugged, unintentionally.

... but drugs can help you reflect on the construction of reality that you do every day.
We all live under a miasma of endemic assumptions, unexamined "truths", and unknown knowns. Reality is not what we take it to be; drugs can help with that.

[Dontaskme]

I'm totally on the same page as you on this, Hobbes. Altering reality perception gives you... *drum roll*... unreality. What a surprise, eh? There's nothing I took away from psychedelic experiences, save the knowledge of what it is like to be under the influence of said drugs. Which is useful if you ever get drugged, unintentionally.

Humans became transcendental through natural substances, perhaps the universe was trying to awaken to itself?

Do you drink alcohol?

Where do all your inhibitions go then...when you are pissed out of your mind? where did your mind go?

I bet you can't answer that one can you dalek ..did you lose yourself for a while there?

Stoned apes comes to mind..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnEKoFrx1rI

[Hobbes' Choice]

Humans became transcendental through natural substances, perhaps the universe was trying to awaken to itself?
I

Silly comment of the week.

"The Universe" thinks that getting monkeymen to take drug is a way of awakening, duh!

[Dontaskme]

Humans became transcendental through natural substances, perhaps the universe was trying to awaken to itself?
I

Silly comment of the week.

"The Universe" thinks that getting monkeymen to take drug is a way of awakening, duh!

We have only got language to use as pointers to the obviousness of pure awareness or ocean of pure potential....this is going to take forever to explain this to you people...but that's the only way it seems..

There is no physicality ...there is no monkey or human or ..what ever else you care to imagine...

There is only the ocean of pure awareness awaring itself...in other words nothing being everything.

Your whole reality is built upon the imagination of yourself...you are the painter of your dream upon the blank canvas of your being.

Awakening to your no self is a very rare phenomena for those still trapped in their mental self. Who told you you actually exist for real?

The idea of a you existing is no one telling the story of itself..it's pure narrative as appearance, aka knowledge of itself...no one is writing the story, although there are many authors appearing...and only ever one reading the story no one ever writ....

[Dontaskme]

All drugs do is change your brain chemistry, and allow you to believe the things you think you've perceived during the trip are true, deep, or meaningful.

Who is the you ..is that not also a belief?

who is thinking? can the perceiver perceive?

seriously aren't you missing a piece of the puzzle here?

The fact that you are on a metaphysics forum means you are on the right track...so keep digging for that gold, it is there, and you will find it I promise. You can curse and swear at me all you like it isn't going to hurt me because I am invisible.... finding truth is a long process for those lost in it.

[Arising_uk]

Arising-uk...Reality is Tacit. There is no reality except as imagined...made-up, fabricated, conceptualised, by a mind that also doesn't exist except as imagined.... what you believe to be your reality is actually unreality.

Compared to what?

You are silence or no thing, not total nothingness, but no thing. That's it...that's all that's here, that's reality.

For me all that is reality is that I'm a body with senses and a language in an external world.

What are YOU without your name? YOU do not exist, only your name exists.

Not sure what this 'YOU' is you're talking about but a body with senses in an external world without or with a name.

That's what's being pointed to. This can only be pointed to... not known directly. You can know the dream but not the dreamer, you are both. You as a dream character are the known, the known cannot know the dreamer because it is it. Just as a machine cannot know it's maker.

Machines can't know their maker as the can't know per se. My makers were my parents and I know them pretty well. What is a lucid dream then?

If you say you know...you don't ....words are known that's all. You have no idea what you are apart from the name.

A body in an external world with senses, in this case a body with senses and a language in an external world which means there are least two of them.

The mind is the void, reality is the void, avoiding itself.....can't have something without nothing.

Personally, new-age twaddle.

This is not a negative. Stop thinking, stop talking, stop ....what's left?

Depends what you mean by 'thinking' here? But if by thinking you mean the internal voice then what is left is sensation and perception.

it's that space of emptiness, the same emptiness you experience in sleep. ...

You lucid dream? Otherwise I think no self-conscious experience in sleep.

That is the real reality, and it's here right now...it's so unbelievable peaceful... the nature all around you is this same peaceful tacit reality...it's so beautiful.

I agree, but it's not empty but totally full.

It's more beautiful than you could ever imagine, imagine the relief in knowing nothing is born therefore could never die...it's pure love.

Maybe but it's also wishful thinking in my book.

[Lacewing]

I still say it's you who have been fooled into believing it was anything more than a trick of the mind.

What else actually is there to any of this?

...every iota of that "nothingness out there" is filled with chaotic energies, and there is no space between other things and the Earth but a thin network of particles that are are loosely packed enough for us to travel through.

You go girl!

refuse to molly coddle the lot of you with your fears of meaninglessness. I've accepted it, and I'm still happily living. But I won't kid myself with pure mindless romantic crap out of fear, or a sense of ultimate worthlessness. It's all worth it while I live, on a personal level. But I know it's not, and don't give a crap. I'm here for the best short run I can have, not for some 'meaningful" long run, whatever the fuck that is.

All you’ve done here is describe your reality. It is only one. It is not the only way it is or can be. I actually agree with you that it’s all meaningless... but that doesn’t change the fact that we can experience that a whole lot of ways. And your crabby pants choice is no more brilliant or real or true than any other. I feel compelled to ask you, Dalek: How DO you think people should be doing it... or do you just have an opinion on how they shouldn’t be doing it?

imagine the relief in knowing nothing is born therefore could never die...it's pure love.

Ahhh... I feel the relief! Flickering on a cosmic screen... full of vibrant color and sound... beautiful.

I actually like to be around those who I find most challenging. Keeps me on my toes. We've all got something to show each other. mostly people are not interested in your ideas, they are looking for validation of their own ideas through you, that's why I like the challenge of opposing views, at least we get to see all sides of the story...

Yes, that’s why I’m here too. I like asking questions about what WE think WE know. I have no single view to peddle... because that concept feels ridiculous to me. The vast universe/field of potential seems so much beyond anything like that! I often wonder why more people don’t consider that. How could we possibly think there is ONE, CORRECT structure?

Still, sometimes there seems to be a point when the repetitive discussions and feverish blah, blah, blah become more noise than intrigue... and I seek a long, cool drink of gentleness and kindred connection. Maybe that’s just part of the pattern of my illusion. 

I was talking to Greta, idiot. And philosophy is supposed to be rational, not airy-fairy flights of fantasy.

Gosh, Dalek, it’s like you woke up and came out of your dungeon. Are you having fun? I have a magic carpet ride I’d like to take you on... but you must not drool on the carpet.

[Dalek Prime]

... but drugs can help you reflect on the construction of reality that you do every day.
We all live under a miasma of endemic assumptions, unexamined "truths", and unknown knowns. Reality is not what we take it to be; drugs can help with that.

Agreed. Drugs can help loosen patterns of thinking, that when one is then clear headed, one can start on a different path.

[Dalek Prime]

Well, the fact that you think there is anything other than personal meaning speaks volumes to the romanticism you hold dear, that does not belong in rational philosophy. The rest of your insults can be flushed down the shitter.

Okay, you've had enough. Me too. It's offtopic and just nonsense. There's too many claims of certainty without such certainty being possible at this time.

PS. I did not insult you in that post other than a smackdown for gross crudity, which you thoroughly earned. There is no need to carry on like an oaf just because the mods are laid back/absent.

Don't be a prude, and don't tell me how to express myself. And I honestly don't care if you insult me online. I was merely pointing out your attempt. Anyways, no offense meant. It's just that I don't think romantic notions of what we want things to be have any place in rational philosophy, and my view on that won't be altered.

[Dalek Prime]

I still say it's you who have been fooled into believing it was anything more than a trick of the mind.

What else actually is there to any of this?

...every iota of that "nothingness out there" is filled with chaotic energies, and there is no space between other things and the Earth but a thin network of particles that are are loosely packed enough for us to travel through.

You go girl!

refuse to molly coddle the lot of you with your fears of meaninglessness. I've accepted it, and I'm still happily living. But I won't kid myself with pure mindless romantic crap out of fear, or a sense of ultimate worthlessness. It's all worth it while I live, on a personal level. But I know it's not, and don't give a crap. I'm here for the best short run I can have, not for some 'meaningful" long run, whatever the fuck that is.

All you’ve done here is describe your reality. It is only one. It is not the only way it is or can be. I actually agree with you that it’s all meaningless... but that doesn’t change the fact that we can experience that a whole lot of ways. And your crabby pants choice is no more brilliant or real or true than any other. I feel compelled to ask you, Dalek: How DO you think people should be doing it... or do you just have an opinion on how they shouldn’t be doing it?

imagine the relief in knowing nothing is born therefore could never die...it's pure love.

Ahhh... I feel the relief! Flickering on a cosmic screen... full of vibrant color and sound... beautiful.

I actually like to be around those who I find most challenging. Keeps me on my toes. We've all got something to show each other. mostly people are not interested in your ideas, they are looking for validation of their own ideas through you, that's why I like the challenge of opposing views, at least we get to see all sides of the story...

Yes, that’s why I’m here too. I like asking questions about what WE think WE know. I have no single view to peddle... because that concept feels ridiculous to me. The vast universe/field of potential seems so much beyond anything like that! I often wonder why more people don’t consider that. How could we possibly think there is ONE, CORRECT structure?

Still, sometimes there seems to be a point when the repetitive discussions and feverish blah, blah, blah become more noise than intrigue... and I seek a long, cool drink of gentleness and kindred connection. Maybe that’s just part of the pattern of my illusion. 

I was talking to Greta, idiot. And philosophy is supposed to be rational, not airy-fairy flights of fantasy.

Gosh, Dalek, it’s like you woke up and came out of your dungeon. Are you having fun? I have a magic carpet ride I’d like to take you on... but you must not drool on the carpet.

Lacewing, I did come out of a mental dungeon after decades of being undiagnoed ADD. I can now focus on what is important. It's very freeing.

Anyways, you folks are adding layers of romanticism onto your phiosophy, seeing what you wish to see. I merely strip it down to it's unadorned essense. No its not pretty, but it's also likely closer to the truth, for being unadorned by optimistic bias.

[Dalek Prime]

"That which we know is alive is actually dead"? What crap. You're clearly alive to make stupid statements like this to other 'living' consciousnesses, Dontaskme.

[Lacewing]

The reality is Lacewing is that we /us, everyone... are the whole god damn ocean, yet we seem to live as if we are this tiny insignificant limited nobody with no power...

Yes! Okay, first let me share...

This reminds me of one of my awesome psychedelic experiences ...which I will share now since it stirred up this thread so much yesterday. Dalek and Hobbes, I hope you're paying attention because I'm sure you'll want to comment. Okay, so I was sitting cross-legged on the bed opposite my husband (at that time), and we were really tripping "together". (In fact, our ability to do this is what spurred me to get married to him, because during one of our "trips" in the desert, he and I were carrying on a full conversation, but our companions noticed that we were only speaking an occasional word out-loud between us, and one of them said: "What the hell are you guys talking about?" I mean, why wouldn't you marry someone you had an experience like that with? )

Okay... so anyway, as I sat across from him on the bed, and our minds swirled together, I suddenly found myself looking into my own face, and then looking into his face, and then looking into my own face again. This "flip" happened several times. It was very matter-of-fact and natural... not scary or weird in any way. It appeared that I was seeing from the point at which there is no REAL difference or separation at all -- and I realized and accepted that this actually applied to ALL. It did not require contemplation later. (Just like anything in life... I think we can be conscious or unconscious in what we experience and see. And everybody has their own way of doing it.)

So, yes, "Dontaskme"... I have a sense of the entire ocean interacting with itself... sending up waves that can look at each other and splash against each other... but it's THE ONE OCEAN. (Previously in this forum, in a discussion about god, I asked the question: "What if it's all “god”/one playing with itself?" I think that was met with silence.)

It's breath taking the opportunities that await us, if only we had the courage to stand alone against the false indoctrinated programming that has been imposed upon us by society family and friends...

So, why did "the one/ocean" start manufacturing such things? Was it to explore in all directions of infinite potential/possibility? Does it create a springboard effect to rebound off of... perhaps ever-increasing/expanding the potential/possibility?

[Lacewing]

Drugs can help loosen patterns of thinking, that when one is then clear headed, one can start on a different path.

So, if one is not taking drugs, is one clear-headed? Have you seen some of the people in this forum? What determines clear-headed? What determines reality?

I do not insult the accomplishments of your journey in any way. I only ask, how do we ever know we've "reached" clear-headedness? Might there never be full/real clear-headedness as long as we're here? How do we know we're not wafting from one dream reality to another? Why would that be a bad thing? Why can't we just have fun with it?