The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

[Obvious Leo]

I'm puzzled, why the need for the Maths when Logic is enough?

Good point.

"mathematics can be used to prove ANYTHING"....Albert Einstein.

It can also be used to prove nothing or to prove two entirely opposite propositions. My favourite would have to be the cosmological constant. This ingenious mathematical device can be used to prove that the universe is expanding and the very same constant can also be used to prove that the universe is not expanding. Both arguments are mathematically flawless.

[Obvious Leo]

there cannot be nothing as if it existed it would not be nothing.

Sometimes the bloody obvious is simply too bloody obvious, I guess.

[Dontaskme]

I'm puzzled, why the need for the Maths when Logic is enough? That is, there cannot be nothing as if it existed it would not be nothing.

The problem we have to unravel with our dual natured mind is to realise that both nothing and everything exist at the same time. Otherwise the idea of nothing could never have manifested in the first place....all this that exist are ideas only.

To the human mind the idea of non-existence and existing at the same time is absurd or impossible, that's because we see only separation, we can not see the whole picture. We can't see the whole picture because we are the whole picture. The mind splits in in two as so to see itself.

When enough insight is dedicated into looking at the quantum nature of consciousness...the whole can be realised, not seen, but realised, or known.


Maths basically built the universe, so it was here long before we humans invented it as symbolic representation. We are now using symbols to figure out what has already been figured out.

This video explains why reality is both irrational and illogical to the human mind...the human mind wants to find logic in his ideas, without ever realising that ideas are the only tool he's ever got to work with to find logic and rational sense, but the reality is much much weirder than that....human mind looking for the missing part of the whole puzzle doesn't realise he's holding it in his hand the whole time...as no data can ever be lost, the universe as been recording it's creation as it goes along, and so it seems it's sole purpose was to become self-aware of itself...it's a long story to unravel...check the last ten minutes of the video which points directly to what I'm trying to say....or watch the whole video, it's very thought provoking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVq39QbFQXE

[SpheresOfBalance]

If in the beginning there was nothing, there could never be anything,

If a state of nothingness is unalterable how can it preclude everything?

I remember similar conversations on the other forum. The idea is that The Void is not bound by any limitations and therefore has infinite potential to produce anything. Yet what could it produce that would not be immediately subsumed by the nothingness - on a reality that grows faster than the nothingness can consume it, presumably - at least for a while.

It's basically another cyclic idea - a nothing/something loop. In a way, it's not miles from Penrose's idea*, just it has a conceptual problem - "nothing" is never quite nothing.

The "big freeze"* is portrayed as a model of total decay into nothingness. According to the first law of thermodynamics, however, all the energy of today's universe (and the formative universe, for that matter) will always be present. The place won't empty out, just that the subatomic particles will be too distant to organise. The first law suggests that something has always existed and always will.

Nothing personal Greta, but this reasoning, I see as originating from minds not capable of fathoming "nothing." In other words, that fact that "something" tries to contemplate "nothing" contaminates the logic, which is also something.

Actually, even though you and others seem to ignore it, something forever, ad infinitum is just as perplexing as nothing. So My words still sand "IF" there was nothing, nothing would eternally be, as nothing cannot generate something. Only something can do that.

I can imagine nothing, and it hurts my head to do so, as I just can't quite see it, because it's nothing. Likewise, my head hurts in exactly the same way, when I contemplate space/time or anything else as if it's forever, ad infinitum, because I just can't visualize that either. Neither one seems possible. Which is why many astrophysicists have turned to god as the originator of the big bang. They just can't see something from nothing or something eternal. Both possibilities baffle them, an end to their reasoning.

[SpheresOfBalance]

You're right, I did misunderstand you. I meant that even Krauss doesn't accept the concept of nothingness as a valid one and if even Larry can't buy it then nobody should.

Hero worship is highly over rated! Only for those of weak compliant minds.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I'm puzzled, why the need for the Maths when Logic is enough? That is, there cannot be nothing as if it existed it would not be nothing.

Your twisting words meanings, because you can't fathom nothing. Nothing has nothing to do with existence, nothing is the lack of existence. Your logic is based upon false premises, contaminated by all the somethings. Most people are incapable of fathoming nothing, just like infinity.

[Arising_uk]

Show me a lack of existence and I'll show you an existence. Infinity is possible as it's just things going on. The twisting of words goes on in the minds of those who think they are saying something deep when they reify the word "nothing".

[SpheresOfBalance]

Show me a lack of existence and I'll show you an existence.
You've got to be kidding me, the lack of existence can't be shown!

Infinity is possible as it's just things going on.
No, infinity is no beginning and no end! Fathom that!

The twisting of words goes on in the minds of those who think they are saying something deep when they reify the word "nothing".
Not at all, but you would believe that, because it serves your purpose. That's about you not me!

[Arising_uk]

You've got to be kidding me, the lack of existence can't be shown!

Exactly because like 'nothing' its not an entity.

No, infinity is no beginning and no end! Fathom that!

Not so, it can have a start and go on.

Not at all, but you would believe that, because it serves your purpose. That's about you not me!

You are a hypocrite of the first order.

[Arising_uk]

The problem we have to unravel with our dual natured mind is to realise that both nothing and everything exist at the same time. ...

I'd have thought this a logical contradiction and as such false.

Otherwise the idea of nothing could never have manifested in the first place...

Not so, because things exist negation is possible but it's not 'nothing' but just not this or these things.

all this that exist are ideas only.

Then you'd have an infinite regress.

To the human mind the idea of non-existence and existing at the same time is absurd or impossible, ...

Because it is but you'd have to say what you mean by 'non-existence' here?

that's because we see only separation, we can not see the whole picture. We can't see the whole picture because we are the whole picture. The mind splits in in two as so to see itself.

When enough insight is dedicated into looking at the quantum nature of consciousness...the whole can be realised, not seen, but realised, or known.

I think there no need for such reductionism, I think consciousness can be explained by being a body with senses in an external world and self-consciousness by there being two of them and our self-consciousness by being two of them with a language.

Maths basically built the universe, so it was here long before we humans invented it as symbolic representation. We are now using symbols to figure out what has already been figured out.

What did the figuring?

This video explains why reality is both irrational and illogical to the human mind...the human mind wants to find logic in his ideas, without ever realising that ideas are the only tool he's ever got to work with to find logic and rational sense, but the reality is much much weirder than that....human mind looking for the missing part of the whole puzzle doesn't realise he's holding it in his hand the whole time...as no data can ever be lost, the universe as been recording it's creation as it goes along, and so it seems it's sole purpose was to become self-aware of itself...it's a long story to unravel...check the last ten minutes of the video which points directly to what I'm trying to say....or watch the whole video, it's very thought provoking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVq39QbFQXE

Will take a look and hopefully get back to you but the idea that there is a need for a reductionism to the level of quanta to explain consciousness seems superfluous to me.

[SpheresOfBalance]

You've got to be kidding me, the lack of existence can't be shown!

Exactly because like 'nothing' its not an entity.
Exactly, now you're finally beginning to understand. Or do you? You're working backwards from something, I said "IF" there was nothing, then..."

No, infinity is no beginning and no end! Fathom that!

Not so, it can have a start and go on.
Wrong, Infinity as far as astrophysics is concerned is infinite in both directions in time.

Not at all, but you would believe that, because it serves your purpose. That's about you not me!

You are a hypocrite of the first order.
No, you are a fool of the first order! You can't escape your limiting bias.

[Arising_uk]

Exactly, now you're finally beginning to understand. Or do you? You're working backwards from something, I said "IF" there was nothing, then..."

Okay, so we agree, there is no such thing as 'nothing' in the sense that people think there could have been nothing once.

Wrong, Infinity as far as astrophysics is concerned is infinite in both directions in time.

Then you better tell those astrophysicists that they ought to stop talking about the big-bang. for myself I care little about what they say, as if they say you cannot have something with a start that goes on for infinity then they need to revisit their number-line.

No, you are a fool of the first order! You can't escape your limiting bias.

You are an idiot as you can never see that what you complain about in others is exactly what you do.

[Dontaskme]

I'd have thought this a logical contradiction and as such false.

Contradictions are complimentary opposites. They need to exist mutually so as to know anything at all.

Not so, because things exist negation is possible but it's not 'nothing' but just not this or these things.

There is no such thing as a thing except as concept.. no thing or nothing is not a concept, so for a thing to be, it has to be a concept, except there is such thing as a THING...so where does the concept of a thing come from? ....answer that then?

Then you'd have an infinite regress.

You would never know what regress is without also knowing progress, so what's it to be, which way are we heading, back or forward...you choose....or is this not moving anywhere? if it is moving one way or the other, which way is it going? have you got any ideas on that one?

Because it is but you'd have to say what you mean by 'non-existence' here?

It's not really absurd when you think about it deeply enough...because if you exist, you wouldn't know that unless you knew you couldn't possibly not -exist...and since you know you cannot not exist, what makes you know you can? who is it that knows they do not not exist, but knows they do exist? and how can you be absolutely certain you exist, how would you know that? ..you'd first have to know you don't exist, in order to know you do exist, so how are you going to know you don't exist? ....how can you know you don't exist, if you've never not existed....?

We are making comparison....so the question is which one is true, and how would you know the difference?

I think there no need for such reductionism, I think consciousness can be explained by being a body with senses in an external world and self-consciousness by there being two of them and our self-consciousness by being two of them with a language.

The external world is the projection of conciousness. Any thing projected cannot know it is a projection because there is no such thing as a thing, except as concept...so where does the concept come from? does it come from the projector or the projection?

What did the figuring?

The same one who is beating your heart, breathing your breath in and out.

Will take a look and hopefully get back to you but the idea that there is a need for a reductionism to the level of quanta to explain consciousness seems superfluous to me.

The point is, you say you have consciousness, but you don't know what it is, and that is the point, how can you know something when you don't know what it is? if you know what consciousness is then please explain what it is here on this forum?

[Obvious Leo]

It's not really absurd when you think about it deeply enough...because if you exist, you wouldn't know that unless you knew you couldn't possibly not -exist...and since you know you cannot not exist, what makes you know you can? who is it that knows they do not not exist, but knows they do exist? and how can you be absolutely certain you exist, how would you know that? ..you'd first have to know you don't exist, in order to know you do exist, so how are you going to know you don't exist? ....how can you know you don't exist, if you've never not existed....?

Is this an example of deep thinking?

[Dontaskme]

Then you better tell those astrophysicists that they ought to stop talking about the big-bang. for myself I care little about what they say, as if they say you cannot have something with a start that goes on for infinity then they need to revisit their number-line.

The big-bang is not what you think it is....what is meant by the original big-bang is the birth of opposites within seamless infinity. When nothing is being everything......also known in the paradox of every action has an equal and opposite reaction meaning life is one seamless action in motion without beginning or end within which is a whole lot of banging going on...relative to nothing, like stop start, born die etc....all conceptual banging.