THE LIMITS OF PHILOSOPHICAL KNOWLEDGE

[UniversalAlien]

From Bertrand Russell, "Problems of Philosophy" :

IN all that we have said hitherto concerning philosophy, we have scarcely touched on many matters that occupy a great space in the writings of most philosophers. Most philosophers -- or, at any rate, very many -- profess to be able to prove, by a priori metaphysical reasoning, such things as the fundamental dogmas of religion, the essential rationality of the universe, the illusoriness of matter, the unreality of all evil, and so on. There can be no doubt that the hope of finding reason to believe such theses as these has been the chief inspiration of many life-long students of philosophy. This hope, I believe, is vain. It would seem that knowledge concerning the universe as a whole is not to be obtained by metaphysics, and that the proposed proofs that, in virtue of the laws of logic such and such things must exist and such and such others cannot, are not capable of surviving a critical scrutiny. In this chapter we shall briefly consider the kind of way in which such reasoning is attempted, with a view to discovering whether we can hope that it may be valid.

My thinking is this - The use of language and all the nuances of words in any language deters, and derides, accurate understanding on any and all subjects philosophical - Another words do philosophers really know what they are talking about or are they just parading concepts on a thinking science as science when in fact they are only mystics in fancier clothes than the so called mystics ?

For example if I say 'computer consciousness" - exactly what is consciousness would have to be answered first, and yet we
have all seen how so-called philosophers will engage in lengthy discussions on this subject without knowing what is and being able to define exactly what is consciousness.

Same might be said about 'REALITY' - Philoso;phers will go on and on, and write books on reality - but do thsy really know what reality is? - Can they prove that reality exists in any real sense of what realy is ? And just what really is ?

Do you see the problem ? - If philosophy is to have meaning {assuming you believe in meaning or you probably would not be reading this} - It must be able to 'separate the wheat from the chaff'

When does philosophy have meaning - Or, does philosophy ever have meaning

[HexHammer]

UniversalAlien

What you see in various philosophy forums, are cozy chat, clueless nonsense and babble ad libitum! If they actually had a clue, they would hold high posts and well paid jobs.

Here's a good thread that shows how utterly clueless people are, and easily manipulated that they will believe in blatant stupidities that makes absolutely no sense! viewtopic.php?t=16218

[Lacewing]

Same might be said about 'REALITY' - Philoso;phers will go on and on, and write books on reality - but do thsy really know what reality is? - Can they prove that reality exists in any real sense of what realy is ? And just what really is ?

I don't think we really know anything... at least not more than anything we might think we know in a dream. Yet, some dreams are pretty fantastic to "experience", for "whatever they are", and that's good enough when we accept it as such.

When does philosophy have meaning - Or, does philosophy ever have meaning

I think it can have meaning within the human bubble world we exist in. It can enlarge our individual bubbles, perhaps, within that. Some people are in very small, thick-walled bubbles that never seem to merge with other bubbles.

A sense of meaning for us can come from anything. Our contemplations are confined to what is within our capability and realm. We are (I think) very, very condensed and limited -- I guess that's what is required to become physical/material. When we try to extend our ideas of meaning beyond that, it's still nothing more than a dream... in which we can make up anything. That's my guess. And I don't think there's anything wrong with dreaming... what else can we do while we're here? It just doesn't seem particularly useful to other dreamers when we impose our dream as righteous over theirs.

Why don't we all inspire each other to enjoy and connect and expand in whatever ways we can and/or feel inclined? Is it possible to share and discuss our explorations and ideas without needing to be "right"? Is fighting over wrong and right a crucial part of this human game... or is it only one level?

For me, philosophical ponderings can be happening constantly... and they are a combination of logic and experience and observance and insight. Within this dream, I've been thoroughly invigorated by such ponderings, although... part of my current philosophy is to accept that it's all within this dream. I accept that I cannot know more from this human/earth mindset. I treasure that for what it is, while remaining open to evolving (if that's possible)... or to some amazing "shift" that might transform and blast-open new awareness/capability/vibration/frequency... which might introduce whole new and expanded "meanings", and dissolve those I've had.

Philosophy is sort of like a brain dance. I think the more we can do it without a lot of ego, the more interesting and flexible and expansive it becomes. The ego seems to want to control and suppress and confine and own. Then it's no longer philosophy (at least from my perspective/logic). Anything that stops breathing and expanding has become static.

[HexHammer]

I don't think we really know anything... at least not more than anything we might think we know in a dream. Yet, some dreams are pretty fantastic to "experience", for "whatever they are", and that's good enough when we accept it as such.

I think you are completely clueless at best, spewing pure babble and ravings!

We can send men to the moon, build extremely high tech electronics, make highly advanced surgery ..etc, etc! So many will have a clue, and that's call "intellect" ..which means "to understand", which you clearly don't!

[Lacewing]

I don't think we really know anything... at least not more than anything we might think we know in a dream. Yet, some dreams are pretty fantastic to "experience", for "whatever they are", and that's good enough when we accept it as such.

I think you are completely clueless at best, spewing pure babble and ravings!

It is challenging to describe what I'm trying to describe. I'm sure it does sound like babble and ravings to some... but I would say, it is no more babble and ravings than yours.

We can send men to the moon, build extremely high tech electronics, make highly advanced surgery ..etc, etc!

Do you honestly think this is all there is to see and know? Do you think we are seeing all the spectrums that exist? Do you think we've reached our pinnacle of evolution/awareness? Do you think we are aware of all else that may be aware of us? We're doing the best we can with this reality we continually create... but clearly(?) we are intoxicated with it and limited by it, don't you think? It is impressive for what it is, but it probably means nothing ultimately. What's so hard to understand about that?

So many will have a clue, and that's call "intellect" ..which means "to understand", which you clearly don't!

Ah... and you consider yourself an authority on what intellect is. Somehow I've managed to create and maintain a successful career and life despite having no intellect (according to you). How do you think I managed that on my own? Do you think there's only one correct way to understand and think about things... and it happens to be the way you do it? Maybe there are things that YOU don't understand. Can you fathom that?

[Harbal]

We can send men to the moon, build extremely high tech electronics, make highly advanced surgery ..etc, etc! So many will have a clue, and that's call "intellect" ..which means "to understand", which you clearly don't!

When did you ever send a man to the Moon, Hex? Or operate on somebody's brain tumor?

[UniversalAlien]

Because of a debate I was having here about another subject it suddenly occurred to me - What is the nature of philosophical inquiry - so I did some research and found an online blog "THE LIMITS OF PHILOSOPHICAL KNOWLEDGE" and went with it
- same thing, right? - well maybe not - 'Limits' might be a good word to use.

For example we base all perception on five basic senses - And assume our five senses show us reality - But I like imagination and often, in spite of the disdain I get from some philosophers, express the view that sci-fi trumps philosophy because it does not set limits on the imagination - What does imagination mean in philosophy? - Mysticism? Most rational philosophers don't want to play with that though there have been 'mystic philosophers'

So here is the problem I see for philsoophy of today - and for philosophy to remain relevant to tomorrow - It must expand beyond the limits of Human reality {whatever that means} and move into other dimensions - postulating the existence of other dimensions {parallel universes} and attempting to understand their meaning. For example I meet a hypothetical alien and he lowers himself to talk to a Human and I ask him how do you see the universe? - He says difficult to describe to you Human as you only have five senses and we have ten - Like someone who is color blind and can not see colors you are blind to the other five senses of perception and you have little idea of how the universe looks and works - Maybe one day your species will evolve and see the rest.

So you say this is just sci-fi speculation and not relevant to philosophy - And I say relevant to whose philosophy? - Plato,
Aristotle, DesCartes, NIetzsche - very capable men who asked and contemplated basic questions of classical philosophy and maybe they will always have some relievance. But, if nothing else, I'm a futurist - I want a philosophy for the future
- A futurte that keeps surpassing the imagination, a future for the evolving mind of tomorrow..........

The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible.
-Arthur C. Clarke

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein







"SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE"
http://universalspacealienpeoplesassoci ... uture.html

[Lacewing]

For example I meet a hypothetical alien and he lowers himself to talk to a Human and I ask him how do you see the universe? - He says difficult to describe to you Human as you only have five senses and we have ten... / ...Maybe one day your species will evolve and see the rest.

Well said! And the alien would probably have their own set of limitations that THEY couldn't fathom beyond either! Mind-blowing how many levels and how vast it could be! There could be (and likely are) all SORTS of dances going on.

[HexHammer]

[but I would say, it is no more babble and ravings than yours.

Ok, what kind of job does one such as you have?!?!

[HexHammer]

We can send men to the moon, build extremely high tech electronics, make highly advanced surgery ..etc, etc! So many will have a clue, and that's call "intellect" ..which means "to understand", which you clearly don't!

When did you ever send a man to the Moon, Hex? Or operate on somebody's brain tumor?

Did I say ..."I"?

[uwot]

Philosophers tend to divide knowledge up. There are necessary truths, but these are very limited. In fact, the entire history of western philosophy has only discovered two. One we owe to the ancient Greek Parmenides: there is not nothing. The other comes from Descartes: there is experience. Neither of those can be thought without their being true. Then there are analytic truths, things like 2+2=4 and all bachelor's are unmarried men. They are true by definition. Then there are contingent truths, for example, 'HexHammer is a blithering halfwit', which are true because they just happen to be the case.

[Lacewing]

Ok, what kind of job does one such as you have?!?!

One such as I? What does that mean? I have asked you all kinds of questions related to your STATEMENTS, and you haven't answered any of them -- yet you want to know what KIND OF JOB I have??? Do you have even an ounce of honor? If so, you should be able to engage in a back-and-forth discussion to provide more information about how you think, in order to explain why you say what you say -- rather than just shouting out insults and then avoiding questions and responsibility by rooting around for something ELSE you can try to chomp and slobber on.

To answer your question, I'm a professional in high tech. And I don't give a crap what kind of job YOU do or don't have because I don't think that defines a person. Wouldn't you agree that there are brilliant people on the street, and idiots in high places... location and position ensure nothing? Rather, it's what you do with your energy and life... what you continually create and maintain... I think THAT is what shows who you are. Now, please explain what kind of thinking causes you to blurt out insults at people without engaging in more genuine back-and-forth discussion?

[Harbal]

Did I say ..."I"?

You said "we", implying that you were involved.

[Lacewing]

Philosophers tend to divide knowledge up. There are necessary truths, but these are very limited. In fact, the entire history of western philosophy has only discovered two. One we owe to the ancient Greek Parmenides: there is not nothing. The other comes from Descartes: there is experience. Neither of those can be thought without their being true. Then there are analytic truths, things like 2+2=4 and all bachelor's are unmarried men. They are true by definition. Then there are contingent truths, for example, 'HexHammer is a blithering halfwit', which are true because they just happen to be the case.

I like the way you described types of truths. Perhaps there are also truths based on perspective/perception too? Something that can be seen from one angle, and not from another. Which is why people see such different realities and "truths"? And which leads me to ask, what makes a "truth" true?

[Lacewing]

Harbal... what is happening to your shrinking avatar? Are you feeling a gravitational pull from somewhere else? Please don't evaporate away. We need you here more than ever to help keep the serious and absurd in proper perspective.