The morality of non-recreational gambling

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Is non-recreational gambling immoral?

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Andrew V
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The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by Andrew V »

Those who've had their heads buried in analytic tomes might make light of this thread but I'm hoping it'll stir a little discussion. Attitudes have become more relaxed over the years but a sizeable portion of society still maintains that gambling is immoral, particularly with reference to the non-recreational side of things.

Below is an unedited blog post of mine. The idea was to write something half-interesting and entertaining for as wide a blog audience as possible (as opposed to anything more academically substantial). My hope here is that someone might offer further food for thought on the matter, in terms of the philosophy, of course.

I'll leave it at that; as I say it's not (a priori) heady stuff and I believe most of the background info you might need is provided in the article. But I'd be glad to explain or elaborate if need be. Thanks.

***

The morality of betting: A case for the defence

Anyone who takes betting seriously is bound to reflect upon the morality of it all sooner or later. In my case it was actually a friend of mine who got me thinking about the topic after something he said a while back. We were small talking about how professional sports betting might compare with an ordinary job. After kindly accomodating the commitment I’d already made to my betting project, he hesitantly objected, ‘it’s someone else’s money’.

Intuition had always backed me up but I was stumped for a justification. So I soon began mulling things over and I eventually arrived at a workable defence. I decided to flesh it out in this essay (1) in the hope that it would add to the debate, (2) to try to to clear my own name as a sports bettor and (3) because it just seemed like the best fit for the first post on this blog. I really would do without the academic approach but this topic asks for it, plus it caters for a wider target audience.

The plan is simple though: lay out the main objections (as I understand them) and offer a reply for each in turn. I use the terms ‘betting/bettor’ over ‘gambling/gambler’ partly to signify the non-seedy side of gambling (in line with my own circumstances) but also because my focus here is really on non-recreational sports betting (although many of the arguments are applicable to gambling generally). You’re always welcome to throw in your two cents in the comments section.

Preliminary note about the bookmakers

Before we turn the spotlight on the bettors, I should mention that they have little to do with the negative publicity often piped through the media. The coverage is generally a taboo-riding exercise but it’s all fueled by a very palpable air of exploitation about the betting industry—for which the bookmakers are largely responsible.

I could easily go on a rant but, to be fair, a typical bookmaker is no more dirty than almost any profit-seeking enterprise these days. (When commercial law is the closest thing to an ethical code out there, what can you expect?) Still, bettors would have a lot less to contend with were it not for the bookies’ dubious ploys, which include:
  • the disproportionate number of betting shops in the poorest towns and cities
  • their profit drive for their gaming machines (aka FOBTs, ‘fixed odds betting terminals’)
  • their marketing strategy to promote betting as a regular form of entertainment
  • their open policy of limiting and refusing winning players’ bets
For the record, I don’t believe any of those are justifiable. The last point here though is that, for betting fans who want to win the moral debate, ignoring or dismissing any perceived wrongdoing (bookies’ baggage or whatever) only plays into the critics’ hands.

It’s just worth bearing the bookies in mind as we now consider the case against bettors.

Objection #1: A dangerous game

Let’s start at the top with perhaps the most common source of criticism: the potential for financial disaster and everything that entails. But it’s only when this outcome is coupled with the ‘slippery slope’ element that heavier betting activity becomes particularly hard to stomach for most people. Since there’s no immunity test for such danger, bettors tend to be regarded with a degree of contempt for their ‘irresponsible’ choice of pastime.

The reported rates of problem gambling around the world equate to many millions directly affected with often devastating consequences, not to mention the harm caused to families and the knock-on effects in society at large. This even leads some critics to argue that the harm outweighs the freedom to bet. If this is true then it asks a question of all bettors as choosing to play the game is itself a form of endorsement.

Reply

Indeed, I’m not one to downplay the harm that betting brings. I’m sure that if the FOBTs weren’t draining the lifeblood of the poor then sports betting would still enable the bookies to rake in most of the shortfall somehow. Rather, my problem here is a lack of perspective.

Firstly, the hardliners who disapprove on grounds of irresponsibility are, in my view, onto a non-starter. Immunity test or not, if I feel I’m in control of my betting activity then, simply, I shouldn’t need to prove it. Problems of trust may arise but then that’s just what they are, not an opportunity to scold for choosing to bet (alas, I speak from experience).

The real challenge is that even the staunchest defenders of personal freedom (count me in) must place the aforementioned harm on the other side of the scales. What do you say to the guy who lost it all—‘serves you right’? Definitely not my style.

If the inherent danger of betting was comparable to that of, say, hard drugs then there might be more to the objection in hand (far too big a stretch when you consider the fact that the vast majority of bettors play safe). Actually, many socially acceptable activities are the best match in that respect. Consider fatty foods, for example. While these foods are usually enjoyed as part of a normal diet, they present a risk of serious harm by way of excessive consumption; i.e. severe obesity and every other related cause of premature death. The parallels with betting are self-evident and so the tables are turned.

Moreover, when a given activity carries an inherent danger, a key condition for its social acceptability is an accessible means of avoiding or sufficiently minimizing the risk. Whether you’re eating, drinking, playing or even facebooking, no one will frown upon you if you do it responsibly. And, sure enough, betting ticks that box. Over the course of this discussion I hope to demonstrate that professional betting is just as permissible as a traditional flutter at the races, but for now it suffices to note that bettors are responsible for their betting activity in so far as they’re responsible for their eating habits; (not that I’m insinuating responsibility with regard to disorders).

The notion of responsible betting is at the heart of any successful moral defence. To what extent it weighs in on this objection and any other depends on how it’s defined; in fact, this whole debate may well stem from a disagreement over just that. In order to reach a suitable definition we really need to examine the critics’ case in its entirety. The remaining objections concern certain aspects of betting that are rather more uncommon among other walks of life.

Objection #2.1: ‘It’s (still) someone else’s money’

If you put betting alongside any ordinary means of income, a glaring distinguishing feature is the fact that the vast majority of bettors lose money. It is these losses which fund the whole industry, fattening up the bookies mostly but also, of course, the winners (or ‘sharps’ as they’re called, a few of whom belong to syndicates). So, technically, my friend wasn’t wrong, but the implication of his statement was that bettors must be lousy to aim to profit at the expense of others.

Reply

The critics can choose from several lines of attack against a bettor’s moral character (and I reckon my friend knew it too). They’re often unwittingly lumped together in the debate, to the detriment of the defendants’ case. I’ve chosen to separate them into three respective sub-objections for the sake of clarity as they comprise the bulk of the criticism.

Let’s just take the bare bones of my friend’s statement first and consider the winner-take-all format of betting. My response then is equally plain: it is valid to look upon betting as a gentlemen’s agreement, honour and all. Bettors may perfectly maintain their integrity as they aim to win the pot—yes, it’s true! Sure, worldy pressures usually turn all of that sour but the point is it’s not by virtue of playing for keeps that bettors may follow suit.

Objection #2.2: Bad company

Beyond its entertainment value, the trillion-dollar sports betting industry is all cold, hard business, so morally speaking it doesn’t offer anything of substance. And, well, many bettors embrace the self-serving lifestyle and some even relish the idea of getting one up on their peers (I like to call these types, ‘I’m-all-right-Jack-asses’). Others go lower still and resort to fraud, devising steady streams of bogus betting systems and tipping services. Perhaps the most conspicuous bettors, though, are the common kind that are readily taken in by the lure of easy money (more on this shortly). Such a multitude of examples would itself appear to be an indictment of betting and those who partake in it.

Reply

My previous argument stands here and it’s worth elaborating. The problems that betting brings may or may not evidence something rotten at betting’s core—it all depends on whether the correlation implies causation in this case. The thing is, as I said, betting isn’t essentially a means for questionable ends. It follows then that the blanket reproach of bettors is prejudiced. Betting may allow troublesome forces into the mix but without an intrinsic causal link to the effects there’s nothing to bear upon a bettor’s moral standing; e.g. internet users can’t be blamed for facilitating drug trafficking. The associated problems may, of course, be of real social and political concern (in which case bettors ought to be concerned too), they’re just not damning of bettors per se. (For a likely source of the degeneracy, how about social deprivation?)

That said, I get the feeling that no single argument can rid bettors of their stigma. It seems to me that the problems surrounding betting may well run too deep, at least as far as the general public are concerned. But that’s no reason to stop now, especially as I have another shot at perhaps the most damaging problem of the lot.

Objection #2.3: Money for nothing

It’s common knowledge that easy money in betting is the stuff of fantasy but the facts are often disregarded in the pursuit of get-rich-quick schemes, usually for a lack of experience. Unsurprisingly, this shortcut mentality doesn’t go down well with hardworking taxpayers; jumping the queue is universally detestable, after all. But strangely enough, when it comes to betting, people tend not to differentiate the queuers from the jumpers and so all bettors get tarred with the same brush. The reason: (a lack of) social contribution.

Tax-free earners and reckless big spenders get a bad rap for obvious reasons, but critics may argue that bettors fail to pay their dues in a more fundamental and crucial respect. There’s a sense that bettors do not earn their winnings, at least not as respectably as upstanding citizens earn their salaries and wages. The sentiment is that bettors neglect a civil duty, that they sidestep common decency even, regardless of the merits of any individual case. It’s pretty simple really—every job sector serves a purpose in society whereas betting serves none other than personal gain; all take and no give.

Reply

Most bettors actually have a job but let’s put that aside for the sake of argument. There is, however, a more barefaced omission here: contributing to society needn’t involve a glowing career, or indeed any regular occupation for that matter! ‘Money for nothing’ means ‘good for nothing’ in this context, but that appraisal won’t wash with those bettors who try as hard as anyone to do something with their lives in some other way, perhaps at some other stage in their lives. Granted, we’re talking about a minority but then that’s true for most day jobs. This yet again prompts and corroborates the same line of reasoning as before.

We should be wary of dismissing this objection so quickly, however, as it may well be perpetuating the ‘gambler’ stereotype single-handedly! So, notwithstanding any blunders of my own, the natural question is, why is it deep-rooted in the public’s psyche? I can offer the following explanation to try to take some of the heat off bettors. Capitalistic principles are almost sanctified these days as they’ve monopolized not only global economics but also Western values; where truly democratic ideals once stood, now stand the preconditions of the free market. Jobs are jobs because they bolster the capitalist system and, in so doing, reinforce an (insidious) form of social stability to which we’re now totally conditioned. Add to this an unhealthy dose of ever-growing fear and bettors may as well be fascists as far as opinion polls go.

I think that wraps up this section. The focus in the next and final objection shifts from a bettor’s personal character back to the function of betting in society, so we’ve kind of come full circle.

Objection #3: Anti-socialistic setup

There’s no shortage of money and players involved but betting is neither a job, nor a game. The bookmakers are just (fat) middle men—take them out of the picture and what you have is something akin to a business proposition but without a public commercial structure running the show. Now, as you’d expect, this leads to an imbalance. Anyone hard up and desperate for financial relief will always lose out to the bookies and sharps. The result is an anti-socialistic wealth distribution—the rich get richer and the poor, poorer.

Reply

It’s surely safe to assume that those who drain the betting pool rarely spare a thought for the little people. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that betting is a competition. For the charge here to stick there must be something wrong with the betting rulebook. And there isn’t, not unless betting is a social reform scheme. The winners tend to keep on winning in any game of skill or competitive environment—the only difference with betting is that money changes hands, but so what?

The distribution of wealth across the globe is already anti-socialistic, and this makes for an unlevel playing field everywhere. The disparity among the betting population is but one manifestation of this state of affairs; that is to say, it isn’t a problem that lies within the remit of the betting industry. Bettors may exacerbate things to an extent but then even a Nobel Prize winner’s pay packet comes with a price of its own. Last I heard, the wealthiest 1% in the world own more than the rest combined and the gap between the rich and the poor keeps widening. If we choose not to implicate the likes of doctors, teachers and engineers in this way then, again, it should be noted that an unlevel playing field isn’t a prerequisite for the betting industry either.

Incidentally, the only kind of problem that occurs within the betting ‘setup’ is the failure to safeguard against the dangers and malpractice we’ve been discussing, which still isn’t a problem with betting per se. To use an analogy, if I get dehydrated on a marathon run, I can blame myself for being ill-prepared or the organizers for a lack of provision, but I can’t blame the run itself (and then chide the other participants).

All right, that’s all folks, at least as far as I can tell.

Conclusion

Looking at all the objections together, you can see that they’re somewhat indistinct and interconnected. The common thread is the notion that betting is inherently corruptive—the activity itself draws in the shady crowd. My central argument is that this is false simply because a bettor may go about his business without doing himself or anyone else any harm at all. That is to say that ‘responsible betting’ isn’t an empty buzzword. It turns out that a straightforward definition works just fine—betting responsibly means:
  1. taking every reasonable precaution to avoid financial, personal, familial and social harm
  2. playing a fair game (i.e. by the rules and in good faith)
Betting is a competition for a pool of wagers. Nothing nefarious about that. Sure, it’s open to abuse and it has its dangers, but the betting industry is a microcosmic mirror of how money matters play out on the world stage. The imbalances and harsh realities in each case are a product of the same pressures and strains so it’s no surprise to see that shady crowd hanging around. This means that bettors may never be renowned for their scruples, and I can live with that; (it’s not as if bettors have much to be proud about anyway). Nevertheless, stereotyping won’t change the upshot: betting is not immoral.
Last edited by Andrew V on Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Non-recreational? Are you talking about gambling as a career choice?

Unless you are extremely talented, surely you are guilty of carelessness and imprudence. And if you are so talented, then you aren't you taking advantage of those failings in others? Assuming of course you haven't simply rigged the game (which is definitely naughty).

I only mention it because I would assume the most common objection to gambling overall is that prudence is deemed virtuous and gambling is either exactly the opposite, or else it is not really gambling at all.
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by Obvious Leo »

A very thoughtful essay which I enjoyed immensely, Andrew. I was a racegoer for many years although nowadays I seldom get to the track. I was a moderately successful bettor, although I wasn't trying to make a living out it, but this was largely because I did my homework. The harder you work, the luckier you get, as the saying goes. I never saw too many deadbeat losers at the races but the industry has always had a few. However the racing industry is a powerful economic driver in my country and gives much more to society than it might appear to be taking away. I would not say the same for the slot machines, which have been very precisely targeted at an economic underclass. These seem to be a far more insidious form of gambling than my occasional day at the races, or even my venturing into a casino when I'm away on holiday.

Nowadays people can bet on anything, anywhere in the world, and because of this simple truth it is inevitable that some people will harm themselves with this power. The only way to minimise this is to educate people to bet responsibly or not at all and this is a considerable social challenge. We shirk it at our peril but such a public education campaign will not be very effective unless our governments exert more authority over the various gambling industries. Where such big money is to be made by the corporate sector then governments tend to be acquiescent rather than pro-active when it comes to protecting the interests of the people. For instance spruiking the odds has become almost mandatory for most sporting events, when once this was limited to racing, very much a sport for adults in which few children take an interest. This is not the case for many other sports in which children take a very keen interest and I very much regard it as morally indefensible to spruik the odds to children. Unfortunately this is happening via various forms of media and I very much regard it as the responsibility of government to address this issue.
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by Andrew V »

Thanks a lot, guys. I'd have got back to you sooner if I could spend my time more freely.
FlashDangerpants wrote:Non-recreational? Are you talking about gambling as a career choice?

Unless you are extremely talented, surely you are guilty of carelessness and imprudence. And if you are so talented, then you aren't you taking advantage of those failings in others? Assuming of course you haven't simply rigged the game (which is definitely naughty).

I only mention it because I would assume the most common objection to gambling overall is that prudence is deemed virtuous and gambling is either exactly the opposite, or else it is not really gambling at all.
Very good points. Perhaps a few distinctions are in order.

By 'non-recreational' we're excluding those who bet for the fun of it. So we're left with the winners and losers of a serious competition, shall we say.

The latter category can be subdivided into those who manage to control their betting activity and those who don't. The sorry picture of degeneracy is usually the first that comes to mind (for good reason perhaps) and I can't see how one might argue against the 'carelessness' bit in most cases there. But what about those bettors who take every reasonable precaution so as to ensure acceptable losses? I don't have a sure-fire answer ready but my first thought is to liken it to the failure that may follow after taking a worthwhile shot at something (which may involve many failed attempts in the pursuit of success).

As for the winners, well I would say that intentions are all-important here. If your aim is to exploit a sad situation then that's indefensible. But one of my points in the essay is that betting doesn't need this sort of backdrop for the industry to exist; the competition could continue even if the pot becomes harder to win. And I'm not so sure that winning alone constitutes taking advantage. Are the privileged always guilty of this (i.e. in all social spheres)?

There is always an element of risk involved in any 'investment', which is what the pros like to call it. But that's besides the fact that gambling is a particular kind of activity that needn't be associated with a particularly big risk, and your usage would seem to be limited/specific to that description. Unless the term, 'professional gambler' is somehow muddled then 'gambling' may also me used in the wider, more common sense.


@Obvious Leo
Thanks for your kindness, suddenly the article was worth writing!

Yeah, if you ever needed proof that the bookies are the devil then the FOBTs are it. (I'm open to a counter!)

I hadn't thought much about the economic benefits of the gambling industry, to be honest. I guess such countenance isn't easy in view of the rampant exploitation on the other side. I am aware, though, that governments' revenues figure heavily in the politics at least, and therefore, this issue may well deserve considerable attention here as well. Unfortunately, utilitarian arguments are usually a last resort for me and for that reason I don't have much to offer in that way (which I assume would be the predominant response---correct me if I'm wrong). That certainly isn't a comment about the validity or weight of such arguments, and the differentiation you make within the industry is no less clear and accurate to me.

You know what, I pretty much agree with everything you've said. It would appear that the moral relaxation has gone too far and is taking a hefty toll...

I'm curious, have you expressed your views to many others? What reaction have you had mostly? I can't seem to get much more than indifference, which is never a good thing.
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by Obvious Leo »

Andrew V wrote: I'm curious, have you expressed your views to many others? What reaction have you had mostly? I can't seem to get much more than indifference, which is never a good thing.
I think my views tend to be rather typical of an educated middle-class Australian and most people of my acquaintance seem to largely share them. Horse-racing has been an embedded feature of the Australian cultural zeitgeist since colonial times and has grown into a major industry, as has the gambling which inevitably goes with it. It is both self-regulating and government regulated and, although not unheard of, instances of corrupt practices are rare.

Although I'm not familiar with the statistics my impression is that cases of individuals with "gambling problems" in the racing industry are less frequent than those in other forms of gambling. However the proliferation of other forms of gambling which has occurred over the past few decades has unquestionably led to a considerable increase in the number of "problem gamblers" in the broader community, and it's probably unnecessary for me to list the litany of social ills which inevitably accompanies such an increase. I have no glib solutions to this problem beyond some modest harm minimisation measures, which both government and the various gambling industries could instigate, in combination with the implementation of proven strategies to assist people who cannot exert proper self-control over their own gambling behaviour.

To return to your central theme. My interest in philosophy is primarily in metaphysics and in logic rather than in ethics so my opinion is very much that of a layman. There must always be more losers than winners in gambling and thus the odds are always stacked against the bettor. As long as this is clearly understood by those who participate in this activity then I see no ethical issue. Those who take the trouble to logically evaluate the various probabilities for a given successful outcome will always outperform those that don't but this same principle could equally be applied to all aspects of the human endeavour,thus I see no valid reason why an ethical distinction should be made between recreational and non-recreational gambling.
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

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Andrew V wrote: By 'non-recreational' we're excluding those who bet for the fun of it. So we're left with the winners and losers of a serious competition, shall we say.

The latter category can be subdivided into those who manage to control their betting activity and those who don't. The sorry picture of degeneracy is usually the first that comes to mind (for good reason perhaps) and I can't see how one might argue against the 'carelessness' bit in most cases there. But what about those bettors who take every reasonable precaution so as to ensure acceptable losses? I don't have a sure-fire answer ready but my first thought is to liken it to the failure that may follow after taking a worthwhile shot at something (which may involve many failed attempts in the pursuit of success).

As for the winners, well I would say that intentions are all-important here. If your aim is to exploit a sad situation then that's indefensible. But one of my points in the essay is that betting doesn't need this sort of backdrop for the industry to exist; the competition could continue even if the pot becomes harder to win. And I'm not so sure that winning alone constitutes taking advantage. Are the privileged always guilty of this (i.e. in all social spheres)?

There is always an element of risk involved in any 'investment', which is what the pros like to call it. But that's besides the fact that gambling is a particular kind of activity that needn't be associated with a particularly big risk, and your usage would seem to be limited/specific to that description. Unless the term, 'professional gambler' is somehow muddled then 'gambling' may also me used in the wider, more common sense.
I would suggest avoiding the equivalence route of comparing to gambling to something else. You may say that it is a bit like investment. But that gives others an in to say your argument reminds them of the suggestion that heroin is ok for those that can take it once in a while, and only bad or wrong for those foolish enough to get addicted. Your equivalence thing is, at best, just as valid as theirs.

I'm also not sure about the purpose of restricting your argument to these 'non recreational' gamblers. It seems like the intent is to escape charges which can be laid against the entire industry (immorally siphoning the hopes and dreams of pitiful degenerates), and perhaps it succeeds in that aim. But the cost seems high. Just as puritanical objections to imprudence and vice are part of the standard objection to gambling, I think fun is one of its stronger defences, but you have sacrificed that. Gambling exists as an industry because innumerable people enjoy it. They find it increases the hedonic value of sports, makes politics worthy of some kind of attention, and makes the remote desert hell hole of Las Vegas habitable for entire weekends.

Surely those who gamble as a career are doing a job they love? The concept of "non-recreational" gambling sounds a little contrived to me, and pursing gambling as a profession while not deriving fun from it seems a little soulless.
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by Andrew V »

Thank you both. To address a shared matter, the reason I picked on non-recreational gambling is that gambling for fun is too easily defended in my view. Although there are arguments against, there is plenty more opposition and a wider range of objections to non-recreational gambling; (I don't think I would've have had much of an essay to write otherwise). This obviously makes for a more interesting philosophical discussion.

@Obvious Leo
More head nodding from me. I guess I asked about your views with today's youth in mind---I just can't figure out where they're at, if they're anywhere at all!

I see the social issues surrounding gambling like I do most problems entrenched in society---no quick fix (as you say) but all the more reason to work on them.

But back to the philosophy.
FlashDangerpants wrote:I would suggest avoiding the equivalence route of comparing to gambling to something else. You may say that it is a bit like investment. But that gives others an in to say your argument reminds them of the suggestion that heroin is ok for those that can take it once in a while, and only bad or wrong for those foolish enough to get addicted. Your equivalence thing is, at best, just as valid as theirs.
Respectfully, aren't you begging the question in the post title? Without an adequate justification, the charge that gambling is inherently corruptive (immoral) is only a presumption of guilt, is it not? I also offer some pertinent counterarguments in my essay (see 'Objection #1'). The potential for addictive behaviour is not necessarily grounds for your appraisal. There are plenty of objectionable aspects of the gambling industry but precisely how they might impinge on the moral standing of gamblers is certainly not straightforward.
FlashDangerpants wrote:Gambling exists as an industry because innumerable people enjoy it.
If recreational gambling ceased then so would the gambling industry as we know it. However, I'm sure that wouldn't stop the other types from gambling among themselves. Did you have an argument in mind here?

I've heard many say that it's not their place to refuse wagers, even from those with a chronic habit. That attitude strikes me as a bit off to say the least. Still, as long as competing among a 'healthy' gambling community is potentially profitable enough, I don't see where gamblers are going wrong.
FlashDangerpants wrote:Surely those who gamble as a career are doing a job they love? The concept of "non-recreational" gambling sounds a little contrived to me, and pursing gambling as a profession while not deriving fun from it seems a little soulless.
There's no need to look at pro gambling as anything more than a profit-making exercise. It certainly is soulless in that sense, but not any more immoral than any kind of legitimate business, I would think. And so we return to square one: why should it be necessary to view non-recreational gambling significantly differently from any form of investment, with regard to the moral standing of the gamblers?
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Andrew V wrote:
FlashDangerpants wrote:I would suggest avoiding the equivalence route of comparing to gambling to something else. You may say that it is a bit like investment. But that gives others an in to say your argument reminds them of the suggestion that heroin is ok for those that can take it once in a while, and only bad or wrong for those foolish enough to get addicted. Your equivalence thing is, at best, just as valid as theirs.
Respectfully, aren't you begging the question in the post title? Without an adequate justification, the charge that gambling is inherently corruptive (immoral) is only a presumption of guilt, is it not? I also offer some pertinent counterarguments in my essay (see 'Objection #1'). The potential for addictive behaviour is not necessarily grounds for your appraisal. There are plenty of objectionable aspects of the gambling industry but precisely how they might impinge on the moral standing of gamblers is certainly not straightforward.
Yes and no. My point was that any talk of equivalence between the activity you are defending and some other that is beyond reproach automatically opens you up to a counter argument that simply compares your activity to one that is reprehensible.

In your objection #1, you used a quantitative risk comparison to compare gambling to other things that aren't good, but aren't always bad. I didn't think your intention was merely to say 'my thing isn't the worst thing so it's more or less ok.'
Andrew V wrote:
FlashDangerpants wrote:Gambling exists as an industry because innumerable people enjoy it.
If recreational gambling ceased then so would the gambling industry as we know it. However, I'm sure that wouldn't stop the other types from gambling among themselves. Did you have an argument in mind here?
More of a note than an argument. I don't think you have made a good strategic choice by excluding fun from your defence of what is after all a leisure industry.
Andrew V wrote:
FlashDangerpants wrote:Surely those who gamble as a career are doing a job they love? The concept of "non-recreational" gambling sounds a little contrived to me, and pursing gambling as a profession while not deriving fun from it seems a little soulless.
There's no need to look at pro gambling as anything more than a profit-making exercise. It certainly is soulless in that sense, but not any more immoral than any kind of legitimate business, I would think. And so we return to square one: why should it be necessary to view non-recreational gambling significantly differently from any form of investment, with regard to the moral standing of the gamblers?
Risk extended in hope of returns is only part of what investment is, but that is the only aspect of it which gambling can correlate with.

Gamblers placing bets is not at all the same thing as providing capital for companies to expand in return for a share of the profits.
It isn't much like buying a new and better plough with which to till your fields in order to raise a greater crop and feed your burgeoning family.
It is distinctly not like hiring a team of scientists to design a blockbuster cancer drugs and then make a pile of cash from it.

Those are valid examples of the benefits that make continued investment an absolute requirement for civilisation to continue, even if there is such a thing as bad investment that nobody approves of. Civilisation would get by just fine if nobody wagered on horses, cards and football matches.

Gambling is no more to be likened to investment than it is to tooting some good cocaine while getting a blowie from a prostitute (which I imagine to be lots of fun, maybe even harmless fun in the right circumstances).

That's effectively why you need the positive aspect of fun in your argument, and why you should also avoid the comparison thing.
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Andrew V
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Re: The morality of non-recreational gambling

Post by Andrew V »

@FlashDangerpants

I really appreciate your input, thank you. I hope you (and any others) don't mind if I continue to draw this out. I'm always interested in any thoughts on this subject.
FlashDangerpants wrote:Yes and no. My point was that any talk of equivalence between the activity you are defending and some other that is beyond reproach automatically opens you up to a counter argument that simply compares your activity to one that is reprehensible.
The logical vulnerability you speak of can only apply 'automatically' if the comparisons in question are not strong enough, which shouldn't be assumed.
FlashDangerpants wrote:In your objection #1, you used a quantitative risk comparison to compare gambling to other things that aren't good, but aren't always bad. I didn't think your intention was merely to say 'my thing isn't the worst thing so it's more or less ok.'
I'm not sure I follow you here. It should be noted that the activities in the examples I used are not usually bad. They're not 'good' as you say, but they're certainly not considered immoral, which was why I chose them.

The comparisons made may draw upon a limited likeness (in that it may not constitute a proof) but perhaps the onus is really on the opposition, given that there are practical, harmless reasons to gamble non-recreationally. That is why I would argue that the 'hard drugs' argument doesn't work in this case. Gambling isn't necessarily destructive (and normally isn't taken to such lengths) whereas the same can't be said for something like hard drugs.

On a related point, one of the things I like about ethics is that the persuasive power of ethical arguments is especially significant. Regarding our case, if more people would tend to see a closer resemblance in fatty foods than in hard drugs then such a comparison may carry good weight, regardless of any obscure absolutes.
FlashDangerpants wrote:I don't think you have made a good strategic choice by excluding fun from your defence of what is after all a leisure industry.
I can see where you're coming from but I don't think there is much of a choice. Whatever bearing an all-inclusive discussion of gambling may have on the matter at hand, only a more targeted approach can address certain issues specific to the non-recreational form, which is perhaps already evidenced by our own discussion this far.
FlashDangerpants wrote:Risk extended in hope of returns is only part of what investment is, but that is the only aspect of it which gambling can correlate with.

Gamblers placing bets is not at all the same thing as providing capital for companies to expand in return for a share of the profits.
It isn't much like buying a new and better plough with which to till your fields in order to raise a greater crop and feed your burgeoning family.
It is distinctly not like hiring a team of scientists to design a blockbuster cancer drugs and then make a pile of cash from it.

Those are valid examples of the benefits that make continued investment an absolute requirement for civilisation to continue, even if there is such a thing as bad investment that nobody approves of. Civilisation would get by just fine if nobody wagered on horses, cards and football matches.
Your entire argument appears to rest upon the fact that gambling is a purely self-serving activity, in contrast with the social utility/function of businesses and other endeavours. That is an important distinction (which is acknowledged in the essay). However, a self-serving activity is not necessarily an immoral one. After all, we could get by without most morally acceptable things (just think of our farcical consumeristic demands).

On a side note, we shouldn't forget that an activity's social utility doesn't change the self-serving motivations, intentions and dubious general character of most businessmen!
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