New Guy

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: New Guy

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

BigWhit wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
BigWhit wrote:Still no answer to the question I've posted repeatedly.
Which is what?
BigWhit wrote:
Seriously, are there any socialists or communists who would like to explain the finer details of their economic model?

If you want to see the answer to this question you need to pay attention and not just resort to insults.
BigWhit wrote:
How do you expect to keep the wealthy from using government itself from tipping the scales in their own favor?

It's called democracy. Two parties in the US have a death grip on politics, and the media is busy manufacturing consent. The UK has been following the model in the last 30 years and is not far behind. But you do not have to go far to see working democracies in action. All five Scandiwegian countries are far more responsive to the needs of ordinary people; educational standards are higher; inequality lower; prison populations and crime are lower.
Iceland is a great example. In the crash they sacked their bankers and gaoled them. There economy is the most recovered in the West.
BigWhit
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Re: New Guy

Post by BigWhit »

You're going to need to be a bit more specific than "democracy."

Iceland's handling of bank fraud and corruption is a great example of justice working, but their population is very small compared to the US or even the UK. This is more evidence for the increased power of smaller and localized government over powerful national government that is further removed from the people.

But Iceland doesn't have the problem of the potential of high and far removed government. Even the power of the federal government in the US was built over decades of slow and minor power grabs which built up over time. The Constitution by itself is not enough to stymie this advance. The governments must be set up in such a way that in order for the federal government to get more power it must get approval from the lower governments. This isn't a fool proof way to do it but I don't think such a thing exists.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: New Guy

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

BigWhit wrote:You're going to need to be a bit more specific than "democracy."

Iceland's handling of bank fraud and corruption is a great example of justice working, but their population is very small compared to the US or even the UK. This is more evidence for the increased power of smaller and localized government over powerful national government that is further removed from the people.

But Iceland doesn't have the problem of the potential of high and far removed government. Even the power of the federal government in the US was built over decades of slow and minor power grabs which built up over time. The Constitution by itself is not enough to stymie this advance. The governments must be set up in such a way that in order for the federal government to get more power it must get approval from the lower governments. This isn't a fool proof way to do it but I don't think such a thing exists.
I'm tempted to agree with the argument about scale, but I think that might be masking a deeper difference. Given that we all live in a global economy with global media, how is it that Iceland managed to pursue the bankers whilst the USA did not? Is Iceland not part of the same world? Is the question more about what social mechanism allowed the US and Uk bankers to get away with the destruction of the economy and continue to be rewarded for failure. Surely 'scale' does not answer this question.
It seems to me that the standard anti-government, anti-social benefits, anti-socialism, pro-tea party rhetoric seems to spew forth from the mouths of the very people that such an ideology oppresses. It's seems some kind of self delusion. From this side of the pond it is pretty scary, but what is happening over here too seems bizarre to say the least. Part of this seems to thrive on the cult of the individual; self-reliance. This works well for the rich who'd rather continue to pay no tax, and have no social responsibility, but whilst this is damaging even for their prospects in the long run, why would they care about schooling blacks or about ending the war on drugs which provides for them 2-3 million workers, making things for less wages than a Chinaman gets?
This is the bedrock of the US economy at the moment, making most of basic military equipment, such as helmets and belt/holders etc. and 100% of domestic house paint. A slave economy is bad for the population as a whole.
Obviously this is a massive topic.
There is a massive irony that the country that shouts most about freedom and democracy has more incarcerated than any country on earth, and a democracy less representative than Iran's.
BigWhit
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Re: New Guy

Post by BigWhit »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
I'm tempted to agree with the argument about scale, but I think that might be masking a deeper difference. Given that we all live in a global economy with global media, how is it that Iceland managed to pursue the bankers whilst the USA did not? Is Iceland not part of the same world? Is the question more about what social mechanism allowed the US and Uk bankers to get away with the destruction of the economy and continue to be rewarded for failure. Surely 'scale' does not answer this question.
It isn't scale alone but how far removed from accountability public officials are. Iceland has about 340,000 people, vs 340 million people in the US. The city of Seattle alone has 2x as many people as Iceland, so scale is not a marginal difference; we're talking about orders of magnitude.
It seems to me that the standard anti-government, anti-social benefits, anti-socialism, pro-tea party rhetoric seems to spew forth from the mouths of the very people that such an ideology oppresses.
Don't mistake me for someone who is pro-tea party. Those people are nuts.
It's seems some kind of self delusion. From this side of the pond it is pretty scary, but what is happening over here too seems bizarre to say the least. Part of this seems to thrive on the cult of the individual; self-reliance. This works well for the rich who'd rather continue to pay no tax, and have no social responsibility, but whilst this is damaging even for their prospects in the long run, why would they care about schooling blacks or about ending the war on drugs which provides for them 2-3 million workers, making things for less wages than a Chinaman gets?
This is the bedrock of the US economy at the moment, making most of basic military equipment, such as helmets and belt/holders etc. and 100% of domestic house paint. A slave economy is bad for the population as a whole.
Obviously this is a massive topic.
There is a massive irony that the country that shouts most about freedom and democracy has more incarcerated than any country on earth, and a democracy less representative than Iran's.
No doubt about the irony, there. Stanford did a meta study recently and found that the US has an oligarchy because the legislature does not represent the voters but the lobbyists.

As for the war on drugs it's not just slave labor from prisons, but the billions of dollars every year spent to keep them incarcerated in for profit prisons, the defense industry that militarizes the police force, and the politicians whose election coffers and personal pockets are stuffed full of cash from the lobbying efforts of the aformentioned.

The whole system is by, of, and for not the people but the few and well connected.
PapersOwl
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Re: New Guy

Post by PapersOwl »

Hi :) I'm newbie. I live in new york and happy to become a part of philosophical community.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: New Guy

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PapersOwl wrote:Hi :) I'm newbie. I live in new york and happy to become a part of philosophical community.
Welcome. There is quite a range of views, from sober sensible and informed right the way down to loony-fruit cakes. So don't be put off at the first hurdle.
Dalek Prime
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Re: New Guy

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
PapersOwl wrote:Hi :) I'm newbie. I live in new york and happy to become a part of philosophical community.
Welcome. There is quite a range of views, from sober sensible and informed right the way down to loony-fruit cakes. So don't be put off at the first hurdle.
Hello and welcome. I'm Dalek Prime, and I will be your first hurdle for the evening. How may I be of service? :wink:

By the way, PapersOwl, do you have an issue with the letter 'a'? A newbie. Am happy. A philosophical community.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: New Guy

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Welcome. There is quite a range of views, from sober sensible and informed right the way down to loony-fruit cakes. So don't be put off at the first hurdle.
Hello and welcome. I'm Dalek Prime, and I will be your first hurdle for the evening. How may I be of service? :wink:

By the way, PapersOwl, do you have an issue with the letter 'a'? A newbie. Am happy. A philosophical community.
Maybe because they call "a" the indefinite article, he's not sure when to use it?
Dalek Prime
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Re: New Guy

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Welcome. There is quite a range of views, from sober sensible and informed right the way down to loony-fruit cakes. So don't be put off at the first hurdle.
Hello and welcome. I'm Dalek Prime, and I will be your first hurdle for the evening. How may I be of service? :wink:

By the way, PapersOwl, do you have an issue with the letter 'a'? A newbie. Am happy. A philosophical community.
Maybe because they call "a" the indefinite article, he's not sure when to use it?
:lol: Aha! There's the source of the confusion!
PapersOwl
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Re: New Guy

Post by PapersOwl »

:D I'm She :) I'm Leyla, and nice to meet you all :)
Dalek Prime
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Re: New Guy

Post by Dalek Prime »

PapersOwl wrote: :D I'm She :) I'm Leyla, and nice to meet you all :)
Remember Leyla, you are a she. Anyways, welcome again. What are your interests in philosophy? Have you had a chance to explore?
PapersOwl
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Re: New Guy

Post by PapersOwl »

Exploring right now :) As A She I still don't see A reason to use A so often :) And thank you for A Welcoming :)
Dalek Prime
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Re: New Guy

Post by Dalek Prime »

PapersOwl wrote:Exploring right now :) As A She I still don't see A reason to use A so often :) And thank you for A Welcoming :)
Clever girl lol! Okay, go explore, and have fun. :wink: Is English your first language, by the way?
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PapersOwl
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Re: New Guy

Post by PapersOwl »

Thanks :) You too ;)
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: New Guy

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

PapersOwl wrote::D I'm She :) I'm Leyla, and nice to meet you all :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX5USg8_1gA
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