Why Christianity Fails in Terms of the Evidence

[uwot]

Then we have encountered different groups of Atheists, because several that I have listened have indeed claimed that they know there is no God.

Can you quote any of them?

Will this do? At 13:10 he states "There is no God".

Also at 7:30 he states "The Bible is not the word of God" later he asserts that it is false. He then goes on to use Bible verses to show how bad Christianity is. It seems odd that he uses a source that he claims is false, when prior to that, he claimed to only base his belief on what he knew to be true.

Is there meant to be a link?

[thedoc]

Then we have encountered different groups of Atheists, because several that I have listened have indeed claimed that they know there is no God.

Can you quote any of them?

Will this do? At 13:10 he states "There is no God".

Also at 7:30 he states "The Bible is not the word of God" later he asserts that it is false. He then goes on to use Bible verses to show how bad Christianity is. It seems odd that he uses a source that he claims is false, when prior to that, he claimed to only base his belief on what he knew to be true.

I'll try again,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMOb8jAzfAo

[uwot]

I watched it. Lots of stuff about amino acids, but as you say, no one says that there is any proof that god doesn't exist. I'm sort of rooting for you, it should be possible to find some idiot who believes they can prove god doesn't exist.

[Immanuel Can]

I'll try again,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMOb8jAzfAo

Indeed. That seems to be necessary in this case.

An extraordinary fellow. He appears to think one can be an Atheist without taking any position. Then he tells us in his definition that Atheism is a "position." Then he says he never said it wasn't a position, but he doesn't have to defend his position.

He says he knows there's no God, then that he doesn't make any knowledge claims, because he's an Atheist.

He also claims to have examined all the potential evidence for God and ruled it all out, apparently, since otherwise we can make not much of his claim to have rejected God based on evidence.

Then he tells us we cannot ever disprove a negative...which is very nearly true, and certainly true in the case of Atheism, but doesn't help one be an Atheist. And yet he remains an Atheist, which is to assert a negation requiring proof.

I think, mon ami, we are in Wonderland, perhaps speaking to the famous Hatter. Or more likely, we are simply talking to someone who refuses to be convinced, no matter how great the evidence may be that he is behaving irrationally thereby.

And the topic is, "Why Christianity fails in terms of the evidence." It should have been, "Why Atheism both denies it needs evidence, and yet pretends to be operating by evidence." That might have been more illuminating. I'd like to know the answer to that one.

I think we will get no further. When basic laws of logic fail to impress, or when even words are used in ways that deny their own meaning, then little is likely to emerge from the conversation, I fear.

[thedoc]

I watched it. Lots of stuff about amino acids, but as you say, no one says that there is any proof that god doesn't exist. I'm sort of rooting for you, it should be possible to find some idiot who believes they can prove god doesn't exist.

I agree, he didn't say that he has proof, and in other Atheists statements they also do not claim proof that God doesn't exist. But the statement has been made by many Atheists that they know that God does not exist, which seems to contradict AronRa's criticism of belief in God, as a belief in something without proof. So on one hand we have the Atheist's statement that they know that God does not exist, which can be read as believing that God does not exist, and the statement that faith in God is believing is something without proof. I would contend that if they reject one belief without proof they must also reject the other.

[thedoc]

An extraordinary fellow.

Yes he is, he seems to be quite knowledgeable about evolution, paleontology and the fossil record. I've listened to several videos on these subjects that he has produced. The one fault I can find, when he ventures into criticizing religion, without digging too deep, is his denial of the Bible's veracity and then use of the Bible to criticize religion. Care must be exercised when listening to him on some subjects, he seems to be using a double standard.

[uwot]

Well as trying again is the order of the day:

It seems your position is that you will use Atheism as a knowledge claim in attack,

You are bearing false witness again. I have not done this.

but deny it is a knowledge claim when you are in defense. You will assert the position (or reason, or knowledge, or evidence...it makes no difference to your case) that Theists are wrong,

If you can back this up with a quote from me, I will give you a biscuit. If you fail, it is because you are a liar.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Atheism makes a claim it cannot back. It essentially says, "I know the unknowable."

It has been repeatedly pointed out to you that no atheist responding to this thread has claimed to know that your god does not exist, yet you publicly persist in accusing us of doing so. I don't know if the ten commandments carry any weight for you, but number 9 says: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. You are doing precisely that and, if you believe in such a place, you will burn in hell for it Mr Can.
If you must argue, then challenge what we actually say. Forever is a very long time to have a red hot poker up your bum.

I have to agree.

No one even knows who or what his god amounts to. And he has not had the courage to define or even describe his god, everything he has said so far is empty words.

[uwot]

An extraordinary fellow.

Yes he is...

Immanuel Can isn't actually talking about AronRa. The character he referring to is a composite of all the arguments he believes he can successfully undermine, but which nobody here has said. As you have found, it is quite difficult to find anyone that expresses them. Very few atheists are daft enough to claim they 'know' that god doesn't exist. As a rule, atheists don't particularly care what people think in the privacy of their own head, it is none of our business. It becomes our business when people start telling us we are irrational, or "the famous Hatter". Which is all a bit of a lark, but it's worth keeping the tools sharp, because some theists believe their right to think as they please extends to telling others what they can and cannot legally do.

[uwot]

No one even knows who or what his god amounts to. And he has not had the courage to define or even describe his god, everything he has said so far is empty words.

He's trying to do a Descartes. He has persuaded himself that he has discovered some sound premise on which he can build an edifice that culminates in 'proving' that his own brand of fruitloopery is The Truth.

[Obvious Leo]

No one even knows who or what his god amounts to. And he has not had the courage to define or even describe his god, everything he has said so far is empty words.

He's trying to do a Descartes. He has persuaded himself that he has discovered some sound premise on which he can build an edifice that culminates in 'proving' that his own brand of fruitloopery is The Truth.

Nice analogy. Nobody can really hold a candle to Descartes when it comes to self-delusion but it's always gratifying to watch people willing to make the effort.

[uwot]

Nice analogy.

Thank you. As far as I can work out, his argument is that it is irrational to maintain that god doesn't exist. Therefore, god exists. I don't need to tell you what hopeless logic that is.

[Obvious Leo]

Nice analogy.

Thank you. As far as I can work out, his argument is that it is irrational to maintain that god doesn't exist. Therefore, god exists. I don't need to tell you what hopeless logic that is.

It's nothing more than trying to put lipstick on a pig, but what is not so easy to understand is why any theist would find it necessary to even try and run such an argument when any undergraduate in Logic 101 could drive a truck sideways through such circular reasoning. The bard was an astute student of human nature and knew the answer to this one. Poor bugger theist is forever doomed to be tormented by doubt.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"....William Shakespeare.

[Hobbes' Choice]

No one even knows who or what his god amounts to. And he has not had the courage to define or even describe his god, everything he has said so far is empty words.

He's trying to do a Descartes. He has persuaded himself that he has discovered some sound premise on which he can build an edifice that culminates in 'proving' that his own brand of fruitloopery is The Truth.

I seem to think he's done all this before, and then left the stage. I'm rather expecting the same thing to soon occur.
He's long stopped responding to my questions.

[Obvious Leo]

He's long stopped responding to my questions.

Do you mean your "What is god?" question. Theists are uniformly coy about exactly what it is that they claim to believe so don't hold your breath while waiting for an answer.