~ The Case For Socialism ~

[henry quirk]

"Problem solved"

Not really, no.

Let's say Zorbock and his alien pals come on down and give evey human being a *machine that can attend to all needs and wants, no matter how peculiar or idiosyncratic. Zorbock and friends ask for nuthin' in return. Overnight, hunger, disease, scarcity, etc. disappears. Any child born is granted a machine that, while never interfering with normal child-rearing, ensures the child is taken care of and educated. The machines also make it impossible for one person, or a group of people, to physically coerce another or group of others.

Productive, innovative types are free to be productive and innovative, parasites have the never-ending teat they've always wanted, the vast majority (falling somewhere midway between the producers and the parasites) get what they want, and even misanthropic, paranoid, solitary, deviants like me are hard-pressed to see the downside.

You'd think such a world would be just peachy, but I got a fiver that sez even in this glorious world of individual plenty there will still be motherfuckers who want to tell other folks what to do, how to think, and these shitheads will stir the pot just as much as they do here and now.

And some of these bastids will be SOCIALISTS.

So, no, problem NOT solved.

The real solution is getting off the rock, getting out into space in a real, effective, efficent way. Distance (between folks of dissimilar thinking) will be a much greater moderator of behavior than 'plenty'.









*the machine is a tiny sphere that hovers near it's owner, is indestructable, unhackable, infinite in capability, requires no maintanance, cannot be taken...a little , round, perfect, santa claus machine

[henry quirk]

My point (laid out for the dim and the idealistic) is human nature is the foundation of the problem, not scarcity of resource. Two rugrats want a lolly...give 'em each a lolly and separate them (cuz it ain't really about the lolly...it's about the other kid's lolly ['he doesn't deserve e a lolly so I'm gonna take it away!']).

[BigWhit]

Segregation is not they key, discussion and immersion in ideas and cultures different from yours is the only. You don't get rid of racism by separating whites and blacks, you make it worse by doing so. You don't get rid of socialists by shoving them all into a space craft and flying them off into the ether.

Travel destroys prejudices, and peaceful discussion destroys ego. Those who might disagree with the latter might do well to examine what they consider peaceful discussion. Such discussion cannot be had with all people. Thise who value their ego more than facts cannot be humbled by the truth.

[henry quirk]

Whit, we'll have to agree to disagree cuz what you lay out above is not my experience at all. In my experience, getting the hell away from the distasteful other is the surest way to peace of mind and a unmolested life. (unless you're just a motherfucker who can't let the other be).

And, I never said shoot the socialists into the ether. I'm no socialist and I'd bug off the rock in a new york minute if I could.

Humanity needs breathing room...physically, conceptually, there isn't any left 'here'.

[Dalek Prime]

"Problem solved"

Not really, no.

Let's say Zorbock and his alien pals come on down and give evey human being a *machine that can attend to all needs and wants, no matter how peculiar or idiosyncratic. Zorbock and friends ask for nuthin' in return. Overnight, hunger, disease, scarcity, etc. disappears. Any child born is granted a machine that, while never interfering with normal child-rearing, ensures the child is taken care of and educated. The machines also make it impossible for one person, or a group of people, to physically coerce another or group of others.

Productive, innovative types are free to be productive and innovative, parasites have the never-ending teat they've always wanted, the vast majority (falling somewhere midway between the producers and the parasites) get what they want, and even misanthropic, paranoid, solitary, deviants like me are hard-pressed to see the downside.

You'd think such a world would be just peachy, but I got a fiver that sez even in this glorious world of individual plenty there will still be motherfuckers who want to tell other folks what to do, how to think, and these shitheads will stir the pot just as much as they do here and now.

And some of these bastids will be SOCIALISTS.

So, no, problem NOT solved.

The real solution is getting off the rock, getting out into space in a real, effective, efficent way. Distance (between folks of dissimilar thinking) will be a much greater moderator of behavior than 'plenty'.







*the machine is a tiny sphere that hovers near it's owner, is indestructable, unhackable, infinite in capability, requires no maintanance, cannot be taken...a little , round, perfect, santa claus machine

I was being facetious about the "problem solved" bit. I don't believe mankind has the will.

[Dalek Prime]

I do.

Why?

Cuz I'm not a passive consumer of what's in front of me, but an active apprehender of that which is not in front of me.

I was an ill-fitting piece as a kid and am even more so as an adult. Never took, do not take, what was and is modeled (overtly and covertly) as gospel. I don't take kindly to direction, or instruction.

So -- yeah -- I really believe I am that much more.

You, I take it, believe yourself to be that much less.

Mebbe, for you, that's the case.

As I say: a great many folks are happy to let others (elected or appointed, covertly and overtly) decide the foundations and parameters of their living.

I'm not one of those folks

We're still heavily molded, but I accept your point. Being an antinatalist, I'm hardly mainstream myself. I shouldn't speak for you.

[Arising_uk]

My point (laid out for the dim and the idealistic) is human nature is the foundation of the problem, not scarcity of resource. ...

Well I don't disagree that trouble will still be around but in your post on the benevolent alien and their cornucopia machines you do appear to agree that a large chunk of the problem is resources? I agree space might help but even there I think trouble will still be around due to the nature of some folks. But do we agree that with space and the resource problem solved life would be a fair-old *socialist 'paradise' rather than a capitalist one? As an after thought, transport appears to be an issue as well

* I take socialist in this case to be the meaning of each being one's own producer.

[bobevenson]

The only proper way to solve your so-called space and resource problem is a free-market without government interference.

[Dalek Prime]

The only proper way to solve your so-called space and resource problem is a free-market without government interference.

That would make the oligarchy happy indeed.

[bobevenson]

So says the resident Communist (oh, I'm sorry, I meant resident Socialist, but then, again, what the fuck's the difference?).

[Bill Wiltrack]

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So...Somalia would be like Disneyland for you?







Government is necessary for executive, legislative and judicial functions. The more visible executive functions include infrastructure, defense, education, regulation of commerce, public health, etc.






.

[bobevenson]

All I can say is that you are certainly one brainwashed motherfucker!

[Arising_uk]

The only proper way to solve your so-called space and resource problem is a free-market without government interference.

Not really bob, as to get to space in any meaningful form will still take nations and I guess it'll be the Chinese or Indians as they have the motivation with respect to populations. All they really have to do is brush-up the Orion project and resign from the test-ban treaty.

[henry quirk]

"you do appear to agree that a large chunk of the problem is resources"

Just the opposite.

#

"I take socialist in this case to be the meaning of each being one's own producer."

If socialism is the binding together of each to every other (Every citizen will be a public man, sustained by, supported by, and occupied at the public expense), then the alien santa clause machines make for an 'individual(ist)' near-utopia, not a socialistic one.

[Arising_uk]

...
If socialism is the binding together of each to every other (Every citizen will be a public man, sustained by, supported by, and occupied at the public expense), then the alien santa clause machines make for an 'individual(ist)' near-utopia, not a socialistic one.

Then it'd depend upon what 'the public expense' means in this situation, as given what you say there'd still be a public and some 'expenses' would still have to be dealt with according to you.
p.s Although in the event that we get these cornucopia machines I'd say that the socialist dream would have been realised and the above quote essentially defunct as that applied to a state where scarce resources applied.