Joy and meaning

[MozartLink]

I realize that my other topics were too long winded. So I wish to discuss this topic. It is an issue I am having since I struggle with depression and anhedonia and it is just plain nonsense to me to say that a depressed and anhedonic person can still have joy and meaning in their lives. I will now begin to explain and we can continue our discussion from here. My other topics only offered different discussions. But this one gets to the very root and to the very point here:

My one and only reason for being a composer is to get pleasure highs off of my compositions since pleasure is the only experience that offers me a joyous and life filled meaningful experience in my life. My goal was to become famous one day and share my compositions exactly as I hear them in my mind. That would then boost my ego and allow me to get even more pleasure highs from being famous and from my music.

It's a good ego and not a bad ego since I am not harming, demeaning, or stealing from innocent people. It is just how I find joy and meaning in my personal life. You might tell me that there is far more joy and meaning that can be had in my life besides my pleasure (my good moods). But since I struggle with depression and a chronic 24/7 absence of pleasure due to a genetic defect, then how are my thoughts alone (mere words and phrases) supposed to give my life joy and meaning?

The thought that I did something in my life anyway and did something for the world contains no joyful meaningful energy without my good moods. These words and phrases are nothing more than lifeless vessels that contain no joyful, meaningful, or inspiring energy to them. They are all like lifeless zombies without a soul. Pleasure is like the soul that fills them all up and everything in my life with profound vigorous life force. This is what gives my life joy and meaning.

Therefore, I just don't understand how others say that a life of depression and an absence of pleasure can still have joy and meaning since thoughts alone are nothing more than an intellectual experience and are nothing more than lifeless words and phrases that contain no joyful meaningful energy to them. So they are nothing more than the words and phrases of joy and meaning. But do not offer any actual experience of joy and meaning in a depressed/anhedonic person's life.

[Obvious Leo]

Are you quite certain that you're not being excessively self-indulgent and deriving a perverse pleasure from being such a miserable bugger? I hear what you're saying because I suffered for many years myself with episodic bouts of depressive illness. What I noticed was that over time these episodes became less severe and less debilitating, to the point where now they are little more than "normal" mood swings. How did this gradual change come about? It certainly didn't happen overnight and the various drugs I tried in the early years were worse than useless. It may sound trite to say it but I got over it because I got sick of it. I got sick of looking into my own head all the time and finding the same miserable bastard belly-aching about what a shitty hand of cards I got dealt. I looked around me and saw how fucking lucky I was to be living such a privileged life surrounded by people who I loved and by whom I was loved. I saw that the vast bulk of humanity had been dealt a far shittier hand of cards than I ever was and were simply getting on with it as best they could. Self-pity is a self-reinforcing and mind-destroying vice and like all vices one need look no further than the nearest mirror to find the cause of it.

[Lacewing]

You're right: the way you see the world is the way it is for you, and that feels very "real", and it's not going to change as long as you believe it can only continue that way. So why do you want other people to argue this point with you? So you can reaffirm over and over how it is and must remain for you? Does this help validate something?

TRULY, what are the chances that you are seeing the ONLY way that things can be for you, or for anyone, or about anything? Have you not had the experience of thinking about things one way (being convinced, even!), only to shift during your life and see a new angle? Why would there not be many more opportunities to do that? Do you see how easy it is for other people to hypnotize themselves with their thinking... such that they are so convinced of the most outrageous things? Would this ability not be in all of us? When we stop telling the same story over and over to ourselves, might we see something new?

You don't have to aspire to anything in particular... just don't limit the possibilities, ya know?

[Obvious Leo]

When we stop telling the same story over and over to ourselves, might we see something new?

This is a nice simple way of putting it. We create a narrative of the world in our own minds and then we proceed to live within this narrative. We unconsciously interpret our experience of the world in such a way that it conforms to our pre-defined narrative of it because that's the only way we can make sense of the world around us. However every time we do this we are closing off our minds to the bigger picture and short-changing ourselves in the journey of the human experience. Neurons that fire together wire together and over time they lay down neural pathways of such rigidity that the potential depth of the human experience will forever remain unexplored. If there's such a thing as an absolute truth about life then this truth is that the individual only gets one crack at it. Make sure you get your money's worth.

[Lacewing]

Leo... I love what you wrote. And I noticed that we've replied at the same time to posts a few times today... like we're in sync, or something.

Yes, our "pre-defined narratives" and our "habitually-wired neurons" create our world... and limit us to that. Then we tell everyone else THAT'S what the world is. We're funny beings! If we could get out of our own way, we would surely discover so much more that's possible in all directions. I think we just have to NOT be afraid of (nor condemn) our ignorance of any given moment -- 'cause that keeps us wrapped up in defending/avoiding it. Just accept it... laugh if possible... and move on. Then we're really free.

[Dalek Prime]

ML's brain chemistry seems set. ML, just don't have kids and pass the problem on to another generation.

[Obvious Leo]

ML's brain chemistry seems set. ML, just don't have kids and pass the problem on to another generation.

Except in very severe cases of depressive illness this has been shown not to be the case, and because I know nothing of ML's condition I can make only a general statement. The individual mind has a great deal more influence on its own electro-chemical processes than is generally understood in the wider community. We are by no means powerless servants of our own biology and almost all people on the typical spectrum of depression can heal themselves of their own condition by an act of will. I do NOT claim that this is easy, and most people would certainly benefit from the professional help which a cognitive behavioural therapist is able to provide, but the prognosis is excellent for people who dare to face up to the fact that the answers lie within.

[Dalek Prime]

ML's brain chemistry seems set. ML, just don't have kids and pass the problem on to another generation.

Except in very severe cases of depressive illness this has been shown not to be the case, and because I know nothing of ML's condition I can make only a general statement. The individual mind has a great deal more influence on its own electro-chemical processes than is generally understood in the wider community. We are by no means powerless servants of our own biology and almost all people on the typical spectrum of depression can heal themselves of their own condition by an act of will. I do NOT claim that this is easy, and most people would certainly benefit from the professional help which a cognitive behavioural therapist is able to provide, but the prognosis is excellent for people who dare to face up to the fact that the answers lie within.

I agree we can work against our predisposition. I do it everyday, and carry on. Glad I don't have to do it forever, though. Also glad I'm not making anyone else do it.

[MozartLink]

You all act as though having a new sense of joy and meaning in one's life is all something magical and that you can have it granted to you if you wish for it, work really hard at it, try new ways of life, etc. I don't think this is reality at all. To me, this is nothing more than some comic book fantasy world where the hero gets beaten down and still finds joy and meaning to carry on in his life despite all that pain and misery.

But we see what the world is today. There are so many depressed and anhedonic people suffering who commit suicide. This has nothing to do with them being selfish or them choosing not to change. There are some who really can't change no matter how hard they try and this is just how their brains permanently are. We as human beings are all reduced down to our brain function, health, and well-being since it is our brains that make us alive in the first place.

So in order to find a new sense of joy and meaning in your life, you have to have a healthy brain. As long as your brain is severely defected, then it is highly unlikely that you will be able to find a new sense of joy and meaning in your life. As a matter of fact, I think a happy healthy brain is the only way to go. A brain that has no depression or defects. Such a healthy and happy brain that is able to experience its full good moods is the only way I see having joy and meaning in one's life.

Like I said, I will try a new way of life and a new outlook. But I cannot promise anything. This non-hedonistic version of joy and meaning is nothing more than a mere deluded fantasy to me that is only achieved in comic books. Life is life. It is a cruel place and to somehow expect to still find joy and meaning in it anyway is nothing more than a fantasy.

Your only way of finding joy and meaning is through a blissful life with as much pleasure and as little suffering as possible. People do live such lives. But it is only the lucky ones who get such a life. Most of those who are unfortunate like me will never find a new sense of joy and meaning in our lives. We like to think that there is something more to us and that there is far more meaning to life than gaining pleasure and avoiding suffering and illness.

But our joy and meaning is not a choice. It is all reduced down to luck just like everything else in this world. Many people think they can have some fancy new car in their lives despite being poor and living on the streets or that they can somehow win the lottery. This is nothing more than a fantasy for most people who live such poor and broken down lives.

So in that same sense, our joy and meaning in life is also like that fancy new car or winning the lottery. Most people who are severely depressed and struggle with the worst depression and anhedonia will not get that new sense of joy and meaning in their lives because they are the unfortunate ones and their brains are very unhealthy and full of illness. Joy and meaning is not a choice. It's all luck and solely depends on our mental health and well-being.

[Obvious Leo]

ML. Are you receiving professional help for your condition?

[Dalek Prime]

I've said all I'm going to say. Your life is your own, ML. But don't then knock us for replying to your public posts. You think nothing can get better for you? Okay then. But I'll say it again; no one here, including myself, is going to put themselves out on a legal limb and say something that could be construed as leading you towards, or justifying, your suicidal ideations. Even if they understand and sympathize/empathize with your situation, and consider it a personal choice. Ain't gonna happen.