New Guy

[Walker]

Ah, cultural differences. I meant k-12 which would include "secondary school". Everything up to college.

As for free choice, parents would be able to apply for their children at those schools they think are best for their children. Schools may end up with more applications than they have capacity, and that's fine. Colleges do this all the time. Those schools with lower attendance would have the incentive to increase their quality of education to attract more students. It's worked for universities, why not public schools?

Interesting article I read the other day. Maybe you saw it.

My year of terror and abuse teaching at a NYC high school
http://nypost.com/2016/01/17/my-year-of ... gh-school/

*

Shouldn't these topics be moved to down under?

[Walker]

Who are the clowns, New Guy?

Clients? Customers? Friends? Family?

Tsk tsk.

Clowns, love 'em or fear 'em.
No middle ground.
Fear leads to hate.

Didn't Yoda say that?

[Hobbes' Choice]

I thought this was the causal chain prior to 2008 correct in the U.S.? I’m not a financial wonk, just recalling what I heard.

- Federal Govt. required banks, under threat of penalty, to issue housing loans to just about everyone.

No, governments gave the power to banks to invent money with a computer. They needed no coercison and they were happy to rake in all the fees. This was new money designed to fuel a property boom to "grow the economy".

- Federal Govt. guaranteed the loans.
- Banks jumped on that gravy train.
- Unqualified home buyers were granted loans.
- Housing for all.
- Massive defaults were the result.
- Banks sought their insured reimbursements.
- Instead of a run on the banks, there was a run on the government, by the banks.

Was it a scheme by the banks to suck up money?
Or, was it a socialist dream of housing for all?

That's a right wing dream.

It was not "socialist" in any sense. It was the dream of free enterprise and everyone for himself. A socialist would provide publicly owned housing as a start up for families who could not afford them. The Republicans who presided over this insanity were not socialist in any sense. I truly find that an odd thing to say from this side of the pond.
The last property bubble which burst spectacularly in 1987 and the next one in 2008 were both the result of Neoliberal Economics of Thatcher and Reagan who both wanted to encourage a home owning economy to move away from social housing; continued by Bush and Blair.
In the UK Thatcher sold off all the "council housing" at a knock down price and forbade the local authorities from building anymore. This advantaged the middle class, and created a large population of people at the mercy of landlords. Those who could not get a mortgage were forced out out of social housing and into rented accommodation, often poor quality and high price.

The result of all this free enterprise is millions of empty homes and millions of homeless; at the same time massive tax cuts for the rich. Not what I can socialism.

[Walker]

Yeah, I remember old Barney had something to do with it. A quick google pulls up this, from a liberal mag.

Hey, Barney Frank: The Government Did Cause the Housing Crisis

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... is/249903/

*

Not saying it was socialism per se, but perhaps the guiding Philosophy. I think once the bubble burst began Barney pulled up stakes before the caca really hit the fan. Maybe for other reasons.

I don't know. I'm not an expert.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Yeah, I remember old Barney had something to do with it. A quick google pulls up this, from a liberal mag.

Hey, Barney Frank: The Government Did Cause the Housing Crisis

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... is/249903/

*

Not saying it was socialism per se, but perhaps the guiding Philosophy. I think once the bubble burst began Barney pulled up stakes before the caca really hit the fan. Maybe for other reasons.

I don't know. I'm not an expert.

Here's how it works.
"Socialism" is a dirty word. Anything that goes bad, and you can blame on your political opponent can attract any random collections of dirty words.
Bernie Saunders is trying to re-claim the word socialism. There is nothing he would do to repeat such a flagrantly stupid economic mistake as that to give power to the capitalist hierarchy. Allowing banks to invent money to buy houses for borrowers put money in the hands of the rich whilst giving all the risk to the poor. I can't think of anything LESS socialist than that.
It's no wonder that the US politics is a confusion of manufactured consent and self oppression.

But you can blame the "GOVERNMENT" for everything. When it was the financial markets that engineered the crash, the governments enabled them.
It's all about SPIN.
The actual financial products, that created the crash were invented by people not in the government. Governments followed an ideological path of deregulation. It was the markets that fucked things up.
You will find yourself better informed if you watch "Inside Job". It sets out the whole thing is simple to understand language, even though it gets a little technical at times.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/

[Walker]

Thanks Hobbes! (Not on Netflix streaming, I'll check Redbox DVD)

It's good to hear all sides.

There are so many poor homeless people living on the street and in shelters in the U.S. of A.

This fact has been ignored for the last 7 years in the press. Every time a Republican gets into office it becomes a major news story.

*

I think this is a wonderful idea for people to be able to get their feet under them, move forward into life. A band-aid for sure, but such a little space is quite valuable when you really need it.

Tiny House Village for homeless set to open in Seattle
http://q13fox.com/2016/01/18/tiny-house ... n-seattle/

Just think what a few of those wasted $Billions could do with an idea like this.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Thanks Hobbes!

It's good to hear all sides.

There are so many poor homeless people living on the street and in shelters in the U.S. of A.

This fact has been ignored for the last 7 years in the press. Every time a Republican gets into office it becomes a major news story.

*

I think this is a wonderful idea for people to be able to get their feet under them, move forward into life. A band-aid for sure, but such a little space is quite valuable when you really need it.

Tiny House Village for homeless set to open in Seattle
http://q13fox.com/2016/01/18/tiny-house ... n-seattle/

Just think what a few of those wasted $Billions could do with an idea like this.

Are you from Washington? BTW?

What people need is good jobs and affordable housing. Most people are happier to contribute to a fair society. We've sadly let ordinary people down I can't see how any of the main political parties have begun to address basic needs like that.
The rich are so fundamentally on control to the media that the hardship is either ignored or SPUN as laziness, stupidity or criminality. The US seems to deal with poverty by building prisons. It has by far the largest prison population on earth and many prison made industries have cripples the low end economy.
98% of domestic pain is prison made, and 100% of basic army kit is mad in prisons.
Prisons take jobs from the economy and act like slave labour, drawing major tax revenues and destroying lives.

[Walker]

Naw, I'm just a guy listening to the aether, or whatever it is. The singing of the Spheres.

[BigWhit]

Who are the clowns, New Guy?

Clients? Customers? Friends? Family?

Tsk tsk.

Clowns, love 'em or fear 'em.
No middle ground.
Fear leads to hate.

Didn't Yoda say that?

The clowns are the people who are driven by fear and ignorance. The state of education has degraded and has lead to a populace which is not only less intelligent but less interested in facts. These people pick a position based upon their fears and stick to it with a hard headed determination in the absence of or even in spite of the truth of the matter in a way which can only be harbored by ignorance.

Some of these clowns are my friends, some are family, some are my coworkers, and some are just fellow citizens. Although I still love them, I am not so sure this nation can long endure in these circumstances. Too many people in my family have fought, some died, for this country and the freedoms it (used to, at least) stand for to feel anything but sorrow at how it is being so willfully thrown to the wayside.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

[BigWhit]

Here's how it works.
"Socialism" is a dirty word. Anything that goes bad, and you can blame on your political opponent can attract any random collections of dirty words.
Bernie Saunders is trying to re-claim the word socialism. There is nothing he would do to repeat such a flagrantly stupid economic mistake as that to give power to the capitalist hierarchy. Allowing banks to invent money to buy houses for borrowers put money in the hands of the rich whilst giving all the risk to the poor. I can't think of anything LESS socialist than that.
It's no wonder that the US politics is a confusion of manufactured consent and self oppression.

I can't think of many things that are less capitalistic than that. It's cronyism at it's finest.

But you can blame the "GOVERNMENT" for everything. When it was the financial markets that engineered the crash, the governments enabled them.
It's all about SPIN.
The actual financial products, that created the crash were invented by people not in the government. Governments followed an ideological path of deregulation. It was the markets that fucked things up.
You will find yourself better informed if you watch "Inside Job". It sets out the whole thing is simple to understand language, even though it gets a little technical at times.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/

The financial surpluses that lead to predatory lending were created by the government. Financial institutions normally have a vested interest in making only sound loans, because if they don't they may go bankrupt. The easy money pushed by the government distorted perceived risk in the market and economists ignored or insulted every opinion that said the market was anything but healthy as an ox until it collapsed. They then scrambled around and said that no one could have seen it coming when they had been scoffing warnings for years.

The real crime was those institutions getting bailed out while the real victims (those who were forced to forclose because their houses were suddenly worth less than half what they paid for them or their payments increased to the point that they couldn't pay them) were left out to dry. If the government really wanted to bail out the economy it wouldn't have bought the securities from the banks and lending institutions but the houses themselves from the people who bought them. The housing bubble and bailout are two examples of the government working toward the benefit of the rich and well connected instead of the people. I would argue that when you give the government power to meddle in the economy you will get no other result because the power to lobby is far greater for the rich than for the poor and middle class.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Who are the clowns, New Guy?

Clients? Customers? Friends? Family?

Tsk tsk.

Clowns, love 'em or fear 'em.
No middle ground.
Fear leads to hate.

Didn't Yoda say that?

The clowns are the people who are driven by fear and ignorance. The state of education has degraded and has lead to a populace which is not only less intelligent but less interested in facts. These people pick a position based upon their fears and stick to it with a hard headed determination in the absence of or even in spite of the truth of the matter in a way which can only be harbored by ignorance.

Some of these clowns are my friends, some are family, some are my coworkers, and some are just fellow citizens. Although I still love them, I am not so sure this nation can long endure in these circumstances. Too many people in my family have fought, some died, for this country and the freedoms it (used to, at least) stand for to feel anything but sorrow at how it is being so willfully thrown to the wayside.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

Sadly people like you resent funding state education. Am I right? so why are you complaining?

Typically the per-head cost of state-funded education is around 1/4 to 1/3 that of privately funded education. Is it any wonder that kids are leaving schools in the US illiterate?
Worst still public funding in the USA is so corrupt that much of the tax derived money goes straight into the back-pocket of the same bunch of crooks that vote for the budgets that find the schools, but granting themselves the outsourced business upon which those schools rely?
Have a problem with drugs/ guns in the school, I'm sure that the State Governor or City Mayor has a friend in the Security business. In fact I have a friend in the media who can raise a hullabaloo in the local news to encourage the hiring of guards for all schools.

Make the kids feel wanted and loved yeah? Send in the sniffer dogs to route out the MJ?

[BigWhit]

I'm not against public funding for schools. In fact I'm in favor of public funding of k-12 education. Educating the next generation as early and as best we can is one of the best boats we can give the economy and the best tools for them to succeed. But we must teach what is relevant like science, civics, history, math, and art. Wood shop is another good class that is being eradicated.

I'm not against guns or drugs but I wouldn't support students having either in school.

I know all too well that those in government give their friends back door deals on public funds. This is why I'd rather the government have only the power and funds necessary to operate effectively, and for that power to be concentrated at the lowest levels so the people can best good them accountable.

In a socialist system these people would have all the more power to hook themselves and their crony buddies up at the publics expense.

[Obvious Leo]

In a socialist system these people would have all the more power to hook themselves and their crony buddies up at the publics expense.

Not necessarily. You're conflating socialism with state socialism which has already revealed itself to be as failed a doctrine as state-sponsored capitalism. There are plenty of other ways in which humanity can organise itself as a social species which accord more realistically with the biological facts. We are not a hive but a collection of tribes.

[Hobbes' Choice]

In a socialist system these people would have all the more power to hook themselves and their crony buddies up at the publics expense.

Wrong. You have advocated a socialist system.
The only way to ensure that public money is spent on public projects is to make a strict division between those spending the money and those receiving it. The ethical instrument known as "conflict of interests" is a central plank in socialism , but seem currently absent from the US system as it stands which has obsessively privatised its services.
How many more times do I have to tell you that you view of "socialism" is utterly wrong.

[BigWhit]

Wrong. You have advocated a socialist system.
The only way to ensure that public money is spent on public projects is to make a strict division between those spending the money and those receiving it. The ethical instrument known as "conflict of interests" is a central plank in socialism , but seem currently absent from the US system as it stands which has obsessively privatised its services.
How many more times do I have to tell you that you view of "socialism" is utterly wrong.

"Conflic of interest" is a central plank in accountability and socialism does not have a monopoly on that.
You're view of capitalism is completely skewed. What the US has is not capitalism, it is crony capitalism. In a capitalist system banks would not have the power to print money at will, the government wouldn't have the power to bail out the banks nor influence the economy.

I'm interested in your difference between state run socialism and "democratic" socialism. To me it seems to be only a naive ideological difference but I could be wrong...