~ The Case For Socialism ~

[Obvious Leo]

The Australian aborigines had a far more sophisticated relationship with the land than any of the modern societies in the world do. To them the land was not something which could be owned because it was the provider of all their physical needs. Instead of seeing themselves as owners of the land they saw themselves as merely custodians of it whose responsibility it was to manage the land in such a way that it could provide for the physical needs of future generations indefinitely. They lived on this continent for 60,000 years before the European invasion and barely put a mark on the place in that entire time. In a little over two centuries since colonisation the arid regions have doubled in area and the Australian ecosystem has experienced the highest rate of species extinction since the Cretaceous-Paleogene event which wiped out the dinosaurs. Capitalism has not been a resounding success here for the people who could actually teach us how live in the joint.

[bobevenson]

What the fuck do you or anybody else really know about Australian aborigines, people who lived in your godforsaken country 60,000 years ago? Get out of your fucking fantasy world, OK?

[henry quirk]

Bob,

Leo believes in the 'noble savage'...same dumb myth is promoted in the U.S. about Indians (oh, excuse me, 'Native Americans' ).

Only reason the 'noble savages' of the world didn't 'rape' the land like them debbil capitalists is cuz all the noble savages had were sticks, rocks, fists, and fire. Hop in your DeLorean, go back, give the 'noble savages' some technology, watch 'em go nuts on the land, the air, the water. Who needs 'dreamtime' when you got the widescreen and cable?

Poop on your 'noble savage', Leo.

[henry quirk]

"so where can you go to actually live freely?"

Seems to me, right now, I can go all kinds of places and buy or rent all kinds of shelter.

Ain't nuthin' 'free' (unless you're a parasite who expects some one else to foot the tab for your living).

Are you a parasite, SoB? Sometimes you sound like one, other times you don't.

[bobevenson]

Bob, Leo believes in the 'noble savage'...same dumb myth is promoted in the U.S. about Indians (oh, excuse me, 'Native Americans' ).

Yes, and go to any ends to attack capitalism via his little dream world.

[henry quirk]

Yep. It's the communitarian way.

[uwot]

entitled to charge you by force... and don't worry, there is not a square inch of "un-owned" land that you are "free" to occupy

-Imp

Absolutely true, although in the UK at least, there are options for 'alternative' lifestyles; cooperatives and communes for example. Or you can become a commoner, as 500 people or so have done in the New Forest for example. You could also opt out of contributing and milk the system by being unemployable for a variety of reasons and let the state support you. If that isn't to your taste, you can fleece the hoi polloi and stash your ill gotten gains in an off shore tax haven. And if all else fails, there are park benches and shop fronts that you can avail yourself of overnight. I don't know about the land of the free, but over here we have options for anyone with the wit or the determination to rid themselves of the social strictures that most people voluntarily submit to. If the numbers of illegal Mexicans the moaning right complain about in the US is any guide, it isn't difficult to live beneath the radar in America either.
I don't know what you imagine this Eden, where people do not compete for land or resources would be like, but you are a human being living on planet Earth, get used to it. Some of us are sharp enough to realise that unless we stick together with others, some of whom we really don't like, there are still more, who are rapacious, greedy and unscrupled who would take the piss. Pretty much as is happening, because if you don't resist, in numbers, you get the sort of government controlled by powerful and organised lobbies that we have on both sides of the pond.
And Henry, if you think people are going to leave you alone on 'your' land, you might consider how much the original 'owners' have left.

[uwot]

And another thing, Henry: the fact that you believe there are people seriously trying to introduce the sort of 'communitarian' ideology you compare with rape and pædophilia is just your paranoia. I do not believe that there is a single major party, anywhere in the western world that has it in its manifesto. If you know otherwise, post a link. No one wants it, it ain't gonna happen.

[henry quirk]

uwot,

Mebbe you wanna go back and read what I posted (on land ownership, for example) before givin' me the dress down.

As for the promoters of communitarianism: the democrats are lousy with 'em. Elizabeth Warren comes to mind.

As to my paranoia: it's well-founded (sez the bear outside the chute, to the sheep inside the chute, being led to the slaughter).

[uwot]

uwot,

Mebbe you wanna go back and read what I posted (on land ownership, for example) before givin' me the dress down.

Show me where to look, and I'll be happy to oblige.

As for the promoters of communitarianism: the democrats are lousy with 'em. Elizabeth Warren comes to mind.

Can you give an example of something she has said that brings her to your mind?

As to my paranoia: it's well-founded (sez the bear outside the chute, to the sheep inside the chute, being led to the slaughter).

Well, it wouldn't be paranoia if it were well founded, but unless you can give well founded reasons, for instance, based on what people in positions to exercise their beliefs have said, it is just paranoia.

[Arising_uk]

What the fuck do you or anybody else really know about Australian aborigines, people who lived in your godforsaken country 60,000 years ago? Get out of your fucking fantasy world, OK?

Are you mental bob? They were still there 200 odd years ago when the British landed.

[uwot]

Are you mental bob?

Are you serious, K?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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[bobevenson]

What the fuck do you or anybody else really know about Australian aborigines, people who lived in your godforsaken country 60,000 years ago? Get out of your fucking fantasy world, OK?

Are you mental bob? They were still there 200 odd years ago when the British landed.

"The relationship between modern Indigenous Australians and Australia's earliest inhabitants remains a matter of scholarly debate. The earliest definite human remains found to date in Australia are those of Mungo Man, which have been dated at about 40,000 years old, but comparison of the mitochondrial DNA with that of ancient and modern Aborigines indicates that Mungo Man is unrelated to any modern Indigenous Australians. The time of arrival of humans in Australia is also a matter of debate among researchers, with estimates dating back as far as 125,000 years ago." -Wikipedia

[Obvious Leo]

What the fuck do you or anybody else really know about Australian aborigines, people who lived in your godforsaken country 60,000 years ago? Get out of your fucking fantasy world, OK?

Are you mental bob? They were still there 200 odd years ago when the British landed.

They're still here now.