~ The Case For Socialism ~

[Obvious Leo]

Free market economics is government NON-management, Bob, and a government which doesn't manage its economy is a rotting carcass waiting to picked clean by vultures. The 20 trillion dollars was STOLEN from the citizens of America by corporate gangsters who placed themselves beyond the reach of the law by taking the precaution of buying the government first.

[bobevenson]

The people that move to Denmark find that they are valued for the work they do, and their families are supported by a grateful state with excellent education and social care. As adulthood arrives they find themselves part of a community in which they are pleased to contribute. Government spending guarantees the ability to raise taxation. If you do not spend you cannot tax.

I'm sorry, but your whole concept of economics is too fucked up to even discuss.

[henry quirk]

There's a place for government (the folks we hire and the systems those folks were hired to manage) in economies: as contract arbiter, as safeguard for those bound up by contract, as safeguard of unrestrained transaction (ensuring all parties are reasonably satisfied).

This is not managing economies, but simply ensuring the free and honest exchange between and among individuals.

The 20 trillion stolen had absolutely nuthin' to do with free and honest exchange and everything to do with government bought and paid for. Call it rich man's socialism, or cronyism, or protectionism, or bribism, or whatever you want to. Hell, you can even call it capitalism for all I care. Me: I call it 'employees dis-embedded from the restraints of their jobs; employers too distracted to pay proper attention to their employees'. What you can't do is claim the 20 trillion was stolen as the result of market forces, philosophy, or honest exchange between and among individuals.

Fundamentally, the solution is for individuals to need government less, to self-rely more, and to see a platter of shit for what it is rather than taking some self-interested employee's word that platter is overflowing with steak.

But, yeah, government has a role, and, often, that role is to shut the hell up and leave folks alone, interceding only when there is obvious, verifiable, contract or transaction abuse.

The problem will not be corrected by socializing the economy, but by forcing government back into its proper role, and that can only happen when the employers (the citizens) pull their heads from their keisters and pay attention to, and be suspicious of, any- and every-thing elected and appointed folks (employees) do or propose to do (especially when such proposals clearly fall outside the limits of common sense...too big to fail, my ass).

[bobevenson]

The 20 trillion stolen...

From whom, by whom?

[henry quirk]

According to leo, up-thread...

The 20 trillion dollars was STOLEN from the citizens of America by corporate gangsters who placed themselves beyond the reach of the law by taking the precaution of buying the government first.

What leo wants bob to believe is this happened because of a market economy.

I think leo is wrong cuz America hasn't had anything approaching an open or unrestrained or 'free' market in years. We've some half-assed hybrid that most closely resembles a loose socialism, a filthy mutate 'thing'.

But, fuck it...socialism is what you want and socialism is what you'll have....'the people', however, will continue to be exactly what they are, so don't be expecting utopia to spring up around your ears. Instead, work hard to get on the local politburo...that's where those who're a little more 'equal' than the common rabble will be found.

[Obvious Leo]

What leo wants bob to believe is this happened because of a market economy.

Actually Leo doesn't need Bob to believe anything because Bob is perfectly capable of constructing his own beliefs. However you've read more into my words than I intended because it is not specifically the market economy which I hold responsible for this corporate piracy. It is specifically an unregulated market economy which allows for the organs of government to be subverted by corporations whose agenda does not extend to the common good. The example of Denmark which Hobbes gave us is a far freer market economy than that of the US because the state insists that all players play on a level playing field and then makes fucking sure that they do so. In the US the major players have made sure that the playing field has been tilted in their favour which prevents the market economy from operating efficiently and makes many US businesses uncompetitive in the global marketplace. The free market economy has therefore been transformed into a plutocracy and history teaches us that this must inevitably end in tears.

[bobevenson]

According to leo, up-thread...

The 20 trillion dollars was STOLEN from the citizens of America by corporate gangsters who placed themselves beyond the reach of the law by taking the precaution of buying the government first.

What leo wants bob to believe is this happened because of a market economy.

I think leo is wrong cuz America hasn't had anything approaching an open or unrestrained or 'free' market in years. We've some half-assed hybrid that most closely resembles a loose socialism, a filthy mutate 'thing'.

But, fuck it...socialism is what you want and socialism is what you'll have....'the people', however, will continue to be exactly what they are, so don't be expecting utopia to spring up around your ears. Instead, work hard to get on the local politburo...that's where those who're a little more 'equal' than the common rabble will be found.

I must have forgotten, since the crap that Oblivious comes up with is beyond lunacy itself, and the guy lives halfway around the word and has the most outlandish ideas about America that I guess he fabricates from his own fantasies.

[henry quirk]

Reviewing the Denmark wiki-entry, I must say, it sure is a nice little habitrail they've set up for themselves.

Good on them.

[bobevenson]

Reviewing the Denmark wiki-entry, I must say, it sure is a nice little habitrail they've set up for themselves.

Good on them.

Exactly what does Denmark make besides cookies?

[Obvious Leo]

Reviewing the Denmark wiki-entry, I must say, it sure is a nice little habitrail they've set up for themselves.

Good on them.

This can be done anywhere, Henry, but such a system cannot be imposed on a population against their will. Governments can only govern effectively with the consent of the governed and thus the impetus for such a society must come from within. I share Winston Churchill's view that democracy is an appalling system of government but since a better one doesn't exist we should try and make it work as best we possibly can. The biggest problem which both your democracy and mine is currently confronting is the parlous quality of our respective education systems. Our democracies have been transformed into a system of government by the ignorant and in an information age this means that the decision-making of our politicians is being informed by opinions polled from people who are not themselves sufficiently well informed to understand their own best interests. They are sitting ducks to be used as pawns by the plutocracy who have even more control over the media than they do over the government.

[Obvious Leo]

Reviewing the Denmark wiki-entry, I must say, it sure is a nice little habitrail they've set up for themselves.

Good on them.

Exactly what does Denmark make besides cookies?

Lego. You could make yourself a brain.

[bobevenson]

Reviewing the Denmark wiki-entry, I must say, it sure is a nice little habitrail they've set up for themselves.

Good on them.

Exactly what does Denmark make besides cookies?

Lego. You could make yourself a brain.

Cookies and Lego. Yeah, that sounds like a country you want to hitch your wagon to.

[Greta]

This can be done anywhere, Henry, but such a system cannot be imposed on a population against their will. Governments can only govern effectively with the consent of the governed and thus the impetus for such a society must come from within. I share Winston Churchill's view that democracy is an appalling system of government but since a better one doesn't exist we should try and make it work as best we possibly can.

The biggest problem which both your democracy and mine is currently confronting is the parlous quality of our respective education systems. Our democracies have been transformed into a system of government by the ignorant and in an information age this means that the decision-making of our politicians is being informed by opinions polled from people who are not themselves sufficiently well informed to understand their own best interests. They are sitting ducks to be used as pawns by the plutocracy who have even more control over the media than they do over the government.

Great post, Leo. It just needed a paragraph break, as above :)

Just as planets cleared their space in the solar system, centres of wealth do similarly, sucking in all the resources around themselves. One day I think humanity will split into two separate species - the technologically enhanced plutocrats and regular people. That's where I think this is going and we are just in the early stages. The dynamic probably echoes the rise of Homo sapiens as they out-competed other primates, driving the closest competing hominids to extinction. Maybe one day the existence of Homo sapiens will be spoken about the way we currently speak of Neanderthals?

[Obvious Leo]

I don't think we've got enough time to fuck about waiting to evolve our way out of our current predicament, Greta, but your point is taken. It is widely supposed that any species which evolves to the point where it develops the capacity to engineer its own destruction will inevitably do so and on the balance of the evidence it's difficult not to be persuaded by this argument. We need to smarten up and we need to do it quickly.

[Hobbes' Choice]

The people that move to Denmark find that they are valued for the work they do, and their families are supported by a grateful state with excellent education and social care. As adulthood arrives they find themselves part of a community in which they are pleased to contribute. Government spending guarantees the ability to raise taxation. If you do not spend you cannot tax.

I'm sorry, but your whole concept of economics is too fucked up to even discuss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory