What accounts for the fact that some students are super-devoted and therefore wholesome and some are not?

[Risto]

It's hard to see what you are looking for. One thing - have you met someone who have gone from lazy and undevoted to devoted? The only time I have seen that is when someone have found their special interest after a long time. Or when hardships of life has been lifted from their shoulders.

I've been that one, gone from not devoted to devoted, or from uninterested to extremely curious. Have you ever seen a child that is not interested in life? If you have, one was probably not healthy. The formal school system often reduces this curiosity that everyone naturally has. I've been outside the formal education system for 5 years now and my curiosity in everything is sky high and keeps growing. But I'm planning to try the formal system again to see if with enough flexibility and the right topics, this curiosity remains.

[Ansiktsburk]

It's hard to see what you are looking for. One thing - have you met someone who have gone from lazy and undevoted to devoted? The only time I have seen that is when someone have found their special interest after a long time. Or when hardships of life has been lifted from their shoulders.

I've been that one, gone from not devoted to devoted, or from uninterested to extremely curious. Have you ever seen a child that is not interested in life? If you have, one was probably not healthy. The formal school system often reduces this curiosity that everyone naturally has. I've been outside the formal education system for 5 years now and my curiosity in everything is sky high and keeps growing. But I'm planning to try the formal system again to see if with enough flexibility and the right topics, this curiosity remains.

I put you in my last category, where I have been myself (growing up in a tough neighbourhood) - People who have had hardships removed from their shoulders. Lower and mid levels of schools is a hardship for people in most western countries, I suppose.

When I read Sein und Zeit a couple of years ago I did as much understanding as I did for at least 2 years of central scandinavian middle school. But that does not say much.

[Jaded Sage]

Yes, I hated studying in high school. Not being able to choose what to study really hinders interest. In college everything changed. I was lucky enough to study philosophy.

Well, I assume interest must be involved. Plato describes such a person as a lover of learning, so I feel it is safe to assume moderately extreme interest is involved. I do not mean to suggest this happens with any subject. For instance, I hate math. Nothing could keep me from being lazy in math class. However, an interest in philosophy or independent general studies did lead me to be interested in wtf zero divided by zero is.

[Jaded Sage]

It's hard to see what you are looking for. One thing - have you met someone who have gone from lazy and undevoted to devoted? The only time I have seen that is when someone have found their special interest after a long time. Or when hardships of life has been lifted from their shoulders.

I've been that one, gone from not devoted to devoted, or from uninterested to extremely curious. Have you ever seen a child that is not interested in life? If you have, one was probably not healthy. The formal school system often reduces this curiosity that everyone naturally has. I've been outside the formal education system for 5 years now and my curiosity in everything is sky high and keeps growing. But I'm planning to try the formal system again to see if with enough flexibility and the right topics, this curiosity remains.

Cheers, good sir! We share the same opinion and aspiration.

[marjoram_blues]

I don't mean students as in being enrolled in school or university. I mean studiers or learners. So I agree there is nothing unwholesome about dropping out. By wholesome I mean both virtuous and conducive to virtue.

I'd like to know why you make this distinction. You seem to be saying that it's OK (in a virtuous sense) to drop out of a specific course of study but if you are an independent ( ? life-long) learner then 'dropping out' is 'vicious', in some way. Of course, you can be both a life-long learner who is studying a specific course to try to improve oneself or attain necessary qualifications. Whether or not any action can be judged 'virtuous' or 'vicious' depends on a variety of factors. Usually pertaining to individual circumstances.

Also, you can't jump to any conclusions that continuing with a specific subject ( whether devoted or super-devoted ) and achieving desired outcome leads to virtue, or is a result of virtue.

[marjoram_blues]

Virtue is an even more murky concept than wholesomeness. Is this a language issue perhaps? What is virtue? Why is being "vice ridden" bad? Are you making some kind of Puritan argument, that we should be slaves to our work and avoid pleasure? Your question seems to carry many hidden assumptions.

Interesting points and questions. JS response?

[marjoram_blues]

Have you got any examples of "vice-ridden" ?

Many students are not really motivated to learn what they are expected to learn at school or at the university.
It must be a question of motivation mainly.

French can be nightmare for many students in the UK. But if you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend who is French then you are motivated to learn French all the time and it becomes a pleasure and you become excellent. You try to write love letters in French, you learn by heart the love letters that you get. You meditate over them. French is the most beautiful language in the world. You listen to France Culture whenever you can. You dream in French.

Excellent question, as yet unanswered. I agree that motivation is a key factor in learning; aligned to inspiration. But I don't see the connection to a general state of virtue or vice.

[marjoram_blues]

So nobody has an explanation?

What's wrong with genes and environment? Personality?

I don't see those as being as big of a factor as many people think it is.

Why not?

[marjoram_blues]

Only if the "right mindset" is the cause of it. I'm looking for the cause.

Why wouldn't the 'right mindset' not be a contributing factor ?

[marjoram_blues]

What accounts for the fact that some students are super-devoted and therefore wholesome, and some are undevoted and therefore not wholesome?

Plato says this will happen: someone correctly practicing philosophy (we will call this both the art of living and studying in general) will become wholesome because of what he studies, disdain doing unwholesome things, and make social life a secondary priority. This became true of me, but my fellow students became as Plato said the majority of students become: vice-ridden. I also became significantly happier than my fellow students, as Plato suggested would happen. I assume it was because of a sincere investment of devotion. What causes the difference, and how can we fix the problem?

Your premise is false. What about wholesome students that are not devoted, and unwholesome students that are devoted? I understand that Hitler was a devoted artist; Churchill a poor student.

Good points. JS, any response to this?

[Jaded Sage]

Virtue is an even more murky concept than wholesomeness. Is this a language issue perhaps? What is virtue? Why is being "vice ridden" bad? Are you making some kind of Puritan argument, that we should be slaves to our work and avoid pleasure? Your question seems to carry many hidden assumptions.

Interesting points and questions. JS response?

This is a waste of time to discuss, as it has little to do with my original question. Maybe later. We all know what we mean by good and bad.

[Jaded Sage]

Only if the "right mindset" is the cause of it. I'm looking for the cause.

Why wouldn't the 'right mindset' not be a contributing factor ?

Wait, I forgot what "it" is. Studiousness? Does it cause the mindset or does the mindset cause it?

[marjoram_blues]

That's kind of missing the point. What causes the wholesomeness causing super-devotion? By super-devoted I guess I mean something like to busy or too interested to do anything unwholesome or become unwholesome in any way, as if there is no time or interest to.

Is this a response to my opening objection that 'there is no such fact'? The point I am making is that it is only your hypothesis, and quite a shaky one at that. Others have asked questions of you. Still waiting your response.

[marjoram_blues]

Virtue is an even more murky concept than wholesomeness. Is this a language issue perhaps? What is virtue? Why is being "vice ridden" bad? Are you making some kind of Puritan argument, that we should be slaves to our work and avoid pleasure? Your question seems to carry many hidden assumptions.

Interesting points and questions. JS response?

This is a waste of time to discuss, as it has little to do with my original question. Maybe later. We all know what we mean by good and bad.

To be so dismissive, how 'vicious' of you.

[marjoram_blues]

Only if the "right mindset" is the cause of it. I'm looking for the cause.

Why wouldn't the 'right mindset' not be a contributing factor ?

Wait, I forgot what "it" is. Studiousness? Does it cause the mindset or does the mindset cause it?

Now you are being careless. How 'vicious'.