Consciousness and free will.

[Obvious Leo]

Alpha. If you want me to stop pointing out the logical fallacies in your statements then you'll have to stop including such fallacies within them. Your stance as an anti-science ideologue is inappropriate in a forum whose aim is to exchange knowledge in the marketplace of ideas. I understand that science is not everybody's cup of tea but ignoring its findings is just an act of WILLFUL ignorance. You have freely willed to ignore the facts because you don't understand the principle of EMERGENCE.

[alpha]

From the moment we are conceived the human machine grows, and the programme changes each day. The unit gets larger and with each new challenge the machine adapts, providing more brain power, muscle, hair, skin to meet new challenges. It defends itself against disease and other forms of attack, modifying its substance with the immune system and externally, technology. It gains autonomy from its makers and follows self determining paths that are not predicted by its initial genetic make-up. It can change.

how exactly does this "self determining" occur? randomly or through a predetermined mechanism? if you say randomly, then i shall categorize you with leo and spheres. if you say via predetermined mechanisms, then you've just made my point. there is no third possibility (courtesy of law of excluded middle).

Creationism and evolution are diametrically opposed paradigms precisely because of the way determinism is defined.

Alpha. You need to read some biology because Hobbes is right. It is the capacity for sentient species to adapt and learn which defines the nature of the will. It dates back to the trilobites, which are assumed to be the first multi-cellular organisms with motility. Complex organisms which can move about need to learn how to make use of this skill so this led to the evolution of a central nervous system and a central processing unit, i.e. a brain. The adaptive success of this variation was such that mind can now be seen as following an evolutionary trajectory of its own. In other words once brains evolved it was absolutely inevitable that eventually one would evolve which would be the uber-predator of the entire biosphere.

This is a mixed blessing because the predator at the top of the food pyramid has nowhere further to evolve to and the only end in sight is extinction. This is not necessarily the case for homo, who has become his own genetic engineer, but the survival value of our uber-brain is certainly questionable, a point masterfully explored by Kurt Vonnegut in his seminal novel, Galapagos.

can you please explain to me with simple words (skipping the biology lessons. my question is about the fundamental laws that govern reality, not about biology) how anything can happen uncaused (through no predetermined mechanism)? is it random?

[Hobbes' Choice]

From the moment we are conceived the human machine grows, and the programme changes each day. The unit gets larger and with each new challenge the machine adapts, providing more brain power, muscle, hair, skin to meet new challenges. It defends itself against disease and other forms of attack, modifying its substance with the immune system and externally, technology. It gains autonomy from its makers and follows self determining paths that are not predicted by its initial genetic make-up. It can change.

how exactly does this "self determining" occur? randomly or through a predetermined mechanism? if you say randomly, then i shall categorize you with leo and spheres. if you say via predetermined mechanisms, then you've just made my point. there is no third possibility (courtesy of law of excluded middle).

Go to School.

[alpha]

Alpha. If you want me to stop pointing out the logical fallacies in your statements then you'll have to stop including such fallacies within them. Your stance as an anti-science ideologue is inappropriate in a forum whose aim is to exchange knowledge in the marketplace of ideas. I understand that science is not everybody's cup of tea but ignoring its findings is just an act of WILLFUL ignorance. You have freely willed to ignore the facts because you don't understand the principle of EMERGENCE.

does the "principle of emergence" defy the principles of logic? if so, i don't wanna know anything about it (i willfully choose to ignore it and be ignorant to it). if it doesn't defy logic, then tell me how something can work without any mechanism. if it does have a mechanism, then i rest my case.

From the moment we are conceived the human machine grows, and the programme changes each day. The unit gets larger and with each new challenge the machine adapts, providing more brain power, muscle, hair, skin to meet new challenges. It defends itself against disease and other forms of attack, modifying its substance with the immune system and externally, technology. It gains autonomy from its makers and follows self determining paths that are not predicted by its initial genetic make-up. It can change.

how exactly does this "self determining" occur? randomly or through a predetermined mechanism? if you say randomly, then i shall categorize you with leo and spheres. if you say via predetermined mechanisms, then you've just made my point. there is no third possibility (courtesy of law of excluded middle).

Go to School.

well, i guess you showed me....

[Hobbes' Choice]

Go to School.

well, i guess you showed me....

Yes exactly.
School, learning lived experience, quotidian needs, desires contingencies as all ways in which " It (we) gains autonomy from its makers and follows self determining paths that are not predicted by its initial genetic make-up. It can change."

The genome consists of a mere 30,000 genes, this is not enough to determine anything more the the physical structure, NOT the features of the autonomous and self determined acts of the human life.

What the fuck do you not understand here?

[alpha]

School, learning lived experience, quotidian needs, desires contingencies as all ways in which " It (we) gains autonomy from its makers and follows self determining paths that are not predicted by its initial genetic make-up. It can change."

you know hobbes, you, leo, et al, never cease to amaze me with your stupidity and ignorance. since you like using the word "fuck" so much, let me use a language that you might understand; what the fuck determines whether a person goes to school or not? what school to attend? what experiences to have? what "quotidian needs" to have? what "desire contingencies" to have? and every other fucking aspect of life that you and leo can think of? what determines all of that? or is it just random coincidence? use your brain hobbes.

The genome consists of a mere 30,000 genes, this is not enough to determine anything more the the physical structure, NOT the features of the autonomous and self determined acts of the human life.

you've repeatedly claimed that you're a determinist, and at the same time keep saying stupid things like "autonomous". nothing in existence is autonomous. autonomy does not and cannot exist in a deterministic system because it requires the element of randomness, which doesn't exist.

What the fuck do you not understand here?

just the stupid parts... oh wait, it's all stupid.

[Obvious Leo]

how exactly does this "self determining" occur? randomly or through a predetermined mechanism?

This is truly a staggeringly stupid question but I'll answer it anyway. NEITHER. Self-determining means exactly what it says.

my question is about the fundamental laws that govern reality,

What laws would they be? A self-determining reality needs no such laws. You're a Newtonian dinosaur.

does the "principle of emergence" defy the principles of logic?

The evidence suggests that the principles of logic are matters beyond your pay grade.

The genome consists of a mere 30,000 genes, this is not enough to determine anything more the the physical structure, NOT the features of the autonomous and self determined acts of the human life.

What the fuck do you not understand here?

He's a fucking robot, Hobbes, so try and keep up. He isn't programmed to understand.

[Hobbes' Choice]

School, learning lived experience, quotidian needs, desires contingencies as all ways in which " It (we) gains autonomy from its makers and follows self determining paths that are not predicted by its initial genetic make-up. It can change."

you know hobbes, you, leo, et al, never cease to amaze me with your stupidity and ignorance. since you like using the word "fuck" so much, let me use a language that you might understand; what the fuck determines whether a person goes to school or not? what school to attend? what experiences to have? what "quotidian needs" to have? what "desire contingencies" to have? and every other fucking aspect of life that you and leo can think of? what determines all of that? or is it just random coincidence? use your brain hobbes.

The genome consists of a mere 30,000 genes, this is not enough to determine anything more the the physical structure, NOT the features of the autonomous and self determined acts of the human life.

you've repeatedly claimed that you're a determinist, and at the same time keep saying stupid things like "autonomous". nothing in existence is autonomous. autonomy does not and cannot exist in a deterministic system because it requires the element of randomness, which doesn't exist.

What the fuck do you not understand here?

just the stupid parts... oh wait, it's all stupid.

I'm beginning to think you are having problems with basic cognition.
Allow me to remind you of the phrase which has caused you to disagree.
Whilst comparing an 'automaton' (let us hope you actually know what one is), I suggested a human was different for this reason; I QUOTE" It gains autonomy from its makers and follows self determining paths that are not predicted by its initial genetic make-up. It can change."

In other words a person gains autonomy from mommy and daddy and follows a a self DETERMINING path, that genes do not predict.

NB: "by its initial genetic make-up"


I'd would have loved to hear a rational objection to this, but I do not think you have the basic understanding.
SO how can 30,000 genes determine what job I apply for, what car I buy? Where is the gene for choosing a MAC over a PC? Which gene determines that I marry in my 30s, but have only one child at 35, and no other. Which genes is it that made me choose Archaeology, then Intellectual history; which one made me try lving in the USA but made me prefer the UK; Which gene made me a left winger; which made me reject vegetarianism and gave me the knowledge to be a sculptor?

Best of all, take these as rhetorical flourishes, because you ain't got a fucking leg to stand on, and I don't want you to embarrass yourself struggling to find an answer.

But I'll give you a hint. Genes are not the only determining factor.

[alpha]

how exactly does this "self determining" occur? randomly or through a predetermined mechanism?

This is truly a staggeringly stupid question but I'll answer it anyway. NEITHER. Self-determining means exactly what it says.

ah! i see! it's neither determined nor undetermined. you non-newtonians are so smart. i wish i was as smart as you guys.

my question is about the fundamental laws that govern reality,

What laws would they be? A self-determining reality needs no such laws. You're a Newtonian dinosaur.

again, no determinism nor indeterminism. very clever indeed. contradictory, but brilliant.

does the "principle of emergence" defy the principles of logic?

The evidence suggests that the principles of logic are matters beyond your pay grade.

says the idiot who believes that something can be neither deterministic nor indeterministic.

The genome consists of a mere 30,000 genes, this is not enough to determine anything more the the physical structure, NOT the features of the autonomous and self determined acts of the human life.

What the fuck do you not understand here?

He's a fucking robot, Hobbes, so try and keep up. He isn't programmed to understand.

yes, he's (i'm) a fucking newtonian/einsteinian/aristotelian who lacks the capacity to comprehend how two contradictions can be simultaneously true.

[Hobbes' Choice]

He's a fucking robot, Hobbes, so try and keep up. He isn't programmed to understand.

I think he's just not reading properly; either that or he's just fucking stupid.
Maybe "...by its initial genetic make-up..." slipped his attention.

[alpha]

Where is the gene for choosing a MAC over a PC? Which gene determines that I marry in my 30s, but have only one child at 35, and no other. Which genes is it that made me choose Archaeology, then Intellectual history; which one made me try lving in the USA but made me prefer the UK; Which gene made me a left winger; which made me reject vegetarianism and gave me the knowledge to be a sculptor?

that's easy... the stupid gene.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Where is the gene for choosing a MAC over a PC? Which gene determines that I marry in my 30s, but have only one child at 35, and no other. Which genes is it that made me choose Archaeology, then Intellectual history; which one made me try lving in the USA but made me prefer the UK; Which gene made me a left winger; which made me reject vegetarianism and gave me the knowledge to be a sculptor?

that's easy... the stupid gene.

You'd know all about that one, as it seems your most dominant gene.
I think we are done here.

[alpha]

I think he's just not reading properly; either that or he's just fucking stupid.
Maybe "...by its initial genetic make-up..." slipped his attention.

allow me to demonstrate the reasoning of you two monkeys; you say:
1. a person gets his autonomy from his parents (his initial genetic make-up).
2. even though this person gets his so called autonomy from his initial genetic make-up, this initial genetic make-up doesn't determine this person's subsequent actions, thoughts, feelings, etc..

i strongly recommend that you two sue whomever sold you your so called brains. you don't even need a lawyer; all you have to do is open your mouth in court and the judge would immediately rule in your favor.

[Obvious Leo]

Alpha. There are two entirely different kinds of determinism and these are technically known as linear and non-linear determinism. In the common parlance linear determinism is also known as pre-determinism and non-linear determinism is more commonly known as chaotic determinism, which is synonymous with self-determinism. These are simple basic definitions which are universally used in both science and philosophy and they are completely orthodox and mainstream principles which any science or philosophy undergraduate would be expected to understand. You quite obviously don't understand these principles so you need to go away and learn them. I suggested this to you ages ago but you clearly ignored my advice and now all you're doing is making a fool of yourself.

[Obvious Leo]

Hobbes. I think we might have to hoist the white flag on this one. The lights are on but there's nobody home.