Consciousness - Eternal to Man

[Bill Wiltrack]

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....................................Well said.





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[Lacewing]

Bill... the last paragraph has some questions for you.

Dubious, it seems clear that Harbal rubs you the wrong way. I think he is actually a much nicer guy than you might be imagining. He's kind of like the "stick that pokes people" when they say questionable things. I don't get the sense that it comes from ego... but rather from a sharp/clever sense of humor... which I really, really appreciate on this site! If it were not for the laughter I get here, I would leave. All of the serious mumbo jumbo really means nothing "ultimately" (cause we just can't really "know")... as far as I'm concerned... so I'm here for the ride and exploration right now. For me, Harbal offers the kind of energy that reminds me not to take any of it too seriously and to consider options(!) and to have a good time. I can't imagine anything MORE brilliant than that!

If I may also point out, for the sake of perspective, that there are people here who do little to connect or to engage in real discussion. They say what they want to say, and then ignore questions and feedback. I disagree that someone starting a thread to announce that they're high (with no further explanation or philosophical offering) is respectful, or of value, to the readers of this forum. Why don't we all just start announcing when we go to the bathroom... or feed the dog? Or any of the people who simply come to preach, or to declare their righteousness or superiority, but don't address direct questions that arise as a response. I find all of these more lacking in substance than a well-timed and thoughtful sentence or two from Harbal.

So, I'm just offering this other perspective to you... although it probably won't change your mind, as it seems like you'd like to wring his neck. Naturally we all have different styles that appeal to us... and we see value in different things.

Hey Bill... do you think THIS is "WELL SAID" too??? You see all of this discussion, and you just hang back, saying nothing significant... after you STARTED it! How about clarifying or expanding on what you were talking about? Yes? How about responding to people's feedback and having a two-way interaction? Maybe?? Or are we just going to see you appear again at some point, creating another thread, to simply blurt out whatever idea fragments you're thinking in the moment... as if this is nothing more than some kind of public announcement system? Let's discuss your ideas if they were important enough for you to post them? Yes? Please clarify/expand on your topic.

[Dubious]

If I may also point out, for the sake of perspective, that there are people here who do little to connect or to engage in real discussion. They say what they want to say, and then ignore questions and feedback.

What you say is frustratingly true yet you exempt Harbal from those who "do little to connect or to engage in real discussion". Where is the engagement here and why the exemption?

Also, insightful of you to point out that philosophy forums amount to nothing more than a cerebral circus...which they actually are. Let's say whatever we like where any difference between anything overtly stupid or intelligent is not even acknowledged except on a purely personal basis. The whole enchilada simply gets baked in the same oven.

For me, Harbal offers the kind of energy that reminds me not to take any of it too seriously and to consider options(!) and to have a good time. I can't imagine anything MORE brilliant than that!

If you "can't imagine anything MORE brilliant" then THAT says it all! It gives a complete resume of what philosophy forums - except those heavily moderated - are all about. As Nietzsche spoke in Zarathustra "with everyone being allowed to read and write soon the spirit itself will stink"... proven over and over again.

If Harbal's incessant put downs without any constructive critiques following elicit your appreciation then it certainly takes a below average amount to endorse it. Have fun with Harbal's humor and brilliance. I don't recall having responded to either of you in the past unless first responded to and expect the same courtesy in return.

[Lacewing]

What you say is frustratingly true yet you exempt Harbal from those who "do little to connect or to engage in real discussion". Where is the engagement here and why the exemption?

I don't expect the same type of value from everyone. I hope to find inspiration or entertainment. Harbal tickles my funny bone... and sometimes makes me think... because of his perspective. So it's not a matter of me cutting him a break of some sort -- I really enjoy a lot of his wisecracks, and it surprises me when other people don't. Maybe he and I have a similar sense of humor... I don't know.

If you "can't imagine anything MORE brilliant" then THAT says it all!

I thought you would like that. I hope you realize that I was trying to make a point -- I wasn't being literal. If someone can make me think AND laugh, it's really a great balance in my book. Both are a huge part of my life. If everything is a cerebral circus (as you say), it's really a bit "mad" anyway, and this is just one more part of the performance.

As Nietzsche spoke in Zarathustra "with everyone being allowed to read and write soon the spirit itself will stink"...

YES, it seems so! Real, thoughtful, philosophical discussions seem lost because such a wide range of people log on to be part of a philosophy website. Maybe it's like some sort of status thing through association? Because clearly... some people seem to be here for reasons other than a love of philosophy. I had no formal study, but I have been a thoughtful sort ever since I was a fetus and wanted to vote (according to Bob) ...and I've been exploring and having philosophical discussions my whole life. It is truly one of my favorite things to do... even if my approach seems a bit unconventional to some.

I don't know what it means that we're all here... such an odd cast of characters. It definitely gives one a lot to observe and contemplate about themselves and others.

If Harbal's incessant put downs without any constructive critiques following elicit your appreciation

I'm not seeing it the same way that you are, Dubious -- and, honestly, I'm not a bad person for seeing it differently. I may be a little fiendish myself... and I may get a giggle when someone seems deserving of the sharp feedback they get... but I'm not supportive of mean-spirited people who are just out to hurt others and elevate themselves... and Harbal has never seemed that way to me. There truly IS, for me, a difference.

I'm sorry I'm on your "shit list" now too.

[Dubious]

I'm not seeing it the same way that you are, Dubious -- and, honestly, I'm not a bad person for seeing it differently. I may be a little fiendish myself... and I may get a giggle when someone seems deserving of the sharp feedback they get... but I'm not supportive of mean-spirited people who are just out to hurt others and elevate themselves... and Harbal has never seemed that way to me. There truly IS, for me, a difference.

I never implied that you were "bad person for seeing things differently". That REALLY would be silly; that attitude is no way to get the other person thinking, oneself included. I don't think Harbal is a bad person either but he too often has these jerk moments where he can't hold himself back from making uncalled for comments on views that counter his even though he was never directly addressed. Why? Is he convinced that everything he feels so compelled to respond to in that manner must be garbage? Expect feedback when that happens.

You may find humor in it but I don't mind saying I personally despise people that manage only insults on ideas that don't conform with their sensibilities while NEVER, EVER having anything pertinent to say whether one would agree with it or not. It's a "would" that never comes into play because an argument is never offered.

You are NOT on my "shit list" but Harbal has been for a long time with his idiot poltroon sarcasms. You like it, I despise it. Let's keep out of each others way.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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For years I have openly pushed the importance of maintaining threads that the original posters starts. I still believe in the importance of this.

Used to take-on all comers especially those who would make a point of stepping on my toes - or others, unnecessarily.

For years I would add gifs to almost every one of my posts to add a non-verbal dimension of levity and/or related content.


Last couple of years words seem to mean less and less to me.


I'm focusing in on the importance of observing my being at any given moment. Consciousness.

Intellectually, we get kind-of lost and at the same time isolated.


When I started the thread stating I was high - I was. Very high. In ecstasy.



If someone attacked my position at that time, it didn't effect me. Still doesn't. The ecstasy, the conception of my consciousness at that time is and was bigger than anything a literal, intellectual attack could affect. So I didn't respond. Didn't need to...Still don't.


That thread stands on it's own for what it was meant to convey.





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[Lacewing]

Bill, thanks for your response! I mean it when I say that it is nice to hear something substantial enough to connect to.

Last couple of years words seem to mean less and less to me.

I'm focusing in on the importance of observing my being at any given moment. Consciousness.

I understand this... and I DO THIS too! There are many times when it seems that words cannot even come close to conveying something to another human being. Whether it be extraordinary meaningfulness... or the sense of endless and wide open space.

I have been unusually "revved up" lately because of so much that is going on at the moment that requires me to be dialed up to "11" energy-wise. And I am observing that while living it. Much more typical for me is to spend large amounts of time in much more quiet observance. No matter how quiet it gets, I am never bored... as the universe just seems so alive and interesting to me. Even with all the craziness we are bombarded with... I am observing it, and observing myself observing it.

Intellectually, we get kind-of lost and at the same time isolated.

One of the teachings I've heard is to see thoughts in my head as clouds moving across the sky. I can observe them and say, "Oh, that's interesting", but to let them pass on peacefully. Not to cling... not to identify with them... just watch them come and go. It seems that our thoughts tangle us up way too much... and then we, ourselves, cannot be free-flowing with all else that is free-flowing. It's like it puts us in little prisons that we maintain for the warden: our ego.

When I started the thread stating I was high - I was. Very high. In ecstasy.

Okay, so there was no explanation to help people understand any part of it. So, what is the purpose of the post for a public audience? I know what it's like to be in ecstasy (probably many of us do!)... and it would be interesting to talk about if you are able to talk about it. If you are not able to do so at the time, perhaps you can wait until you can?? Otherwise, it's just more of the issue of us talking AT EACH OTHER.... rather than WITH each other, right? I, personally, think this "talking AT each other" is a big issue worth noticing. It doesn't seem like it's very REAL or ALIVE for any of us. It's just more words being thrown against a wall to see if they stick... as opposed to generating something of substance that people can see and use and connect with for themselves.

That thread stands on it's own for what it was meant to convey.

What was it meant to convey beyond your own immediate "state" -- and why would people care about that? What did you expect other people to get from it? Does that matter to you?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Consciousness. Has nothing directly to do with me...or with any individual human being.

Yet, indirectly, consciousness determines everything about you, me & the remainder of mankind.

I will die. We all pass by yet consciousness continues - un-phased.


I am not a part of consciousness yet the function of consciousness determines everything about our reality.


I suspect, that if we were to experience ecstasy; total detachment we could see that we are trapped, in a way, of being individual. Being tied to gestalt of accepting that we are nothing but individual.


What if...what if maturity, REAL maturity in being a complete human being entailed the being of all; of every man and every woman. Understanding all.


Don't know if you have ever had the pleasure of listening to music but using music as an example, you receive information when you listen to music but it is not explained or not fully explained. That is the beauty and appeal of music and the appreciation of philosophy and art in general. Art has the ability to expand your consciousness for a period of time.

I announced, via a post on this forum that I was, essentially, experiencing an altered or expanded period of consciousness.

Why would an expression like that bother you?


When I originally read your response to my original post I was not upset.

My first reaction was, left brain attacking right brain. Which is fairly common.

I believe I would let-go if I were you. If you are able to. No offense was taken on my part.


Actually I wouldn't even know you from any other poster on this forum now or in the future. So...there is no hard feelings on my part.

Good luck to you.





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[Harbal]

BW at least came up with an idea by no means original but not often expressed while a trolling little parasite like you - and other sites as well - always looks for something to put down. You truly live in the slum areas of "Opinion" forums. If others, like Lacewing, who seems to regret her "follow-up" post, think it's a high-rise, so be it. Even wacko statements like "I'm High" are more interesting than any cheap superiority purchased, not by analysis, but derogatory remarks only.

If this is your attempt at an apology, It's too late.

[Harbal]

.Dubious, it seems clear that Harbal rubs you the wrong way. I think he is actually a much nicer guy than you might be imagining. He's kind of like the "stick that pokes people" when they say questionable things. I don't get the sense that it comes from ego... but rather from a sharp/clever sense of humor... which I really, really appreciate on this site! If it were not for the laughter I get here, I would leave. All of the serious mumbo jumbo really means nothing "ultimately" (cause we just can't really "know")... as far as I'm concerned... so I'm here for the ride and exploration right now. For me, Harbal offers the kind of energy that reminds me not to take any of it too seriously and to consider options(!) and to have a good time. I can't imagine anything MORE brilliant than that!

Now that's what I call a good post. You could learn something from this, Dubious.

[Lacewing]

I announced, via a post on this forum that I was, essentially, experiencing an altered or expanded period of consciousness.

And why would anyone care, Bill?

Do you have any commitment to the aim of two-way philosophical discussion -- or do you see this site as a place for you to blurt out your states of mind?

[Dubious]

BW at least came up with an idea by no means original but not often expressed while a trolling little parasite like you - and other sites as well - always looks for something to put down. You truly live in the slum areas of "Opinion" forums. If others, like Lacewing, who seems to regret her "follow-up" post, think it's a high-rise, so be it. Even wacko statements like "I'm High" are more interesting than any cheap superiority purchased, not by analysis, but derogatory remarks only.

If this is your attempt at an apology, It's too late.

There's at least one person who will find this amusing.

.Dubious, it seems clear that Harbal rubs you the wrong way. I think he is actually a much nicer guy than you might be imagining. He's kind of like the "stick that pokes people" when they say questionable things. I don't get the sense that it comes from ego... but rather from a sharp/clever sense of humor... which I really, really appreciate on this site! If it were not for the laughter I get here, I would leave. All of the serious mumbo jumbo really means nothing "ultimately" (cause we just can't really "know")... as far as I'm concerned... so I'm here for the ride and exploration right now. For me, Harbal offers the kind of energy that reminds me not to take any of it too seriously and to consider options(!) and to have a good time. I can't imagine anything MORE brilliant than that!

Now that's what I call a good post. You could learn something from this, Dubious.

You already taught me everything I need to know about you but thank you for your concern.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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I may argue that this forum is precisely and specifically a place for members to blurt out their states of mind.


Isn't that what we do whenever we express ourselves anytime anywhere?





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[Lacewing]

Bill... Your games and refusal to take responsibility for your bizarre behavior say more about you than your answers apparently ever can. Got it.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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We are no-men in no-man's land.

At times I conceive myself as already dead yet push-through another day. On autopilot if you will.


Not much of a difference.


We think we enact things. Do things. Choose things...but in reality those things choose us just as much as we choose them...if not more so.


Each fold of our reality is static. Pre-determined by already set rules & laws.


Consciousness - Eternal to man.




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