Mill, Liberty & Euthanasia

[Dalek Prime]

I am a Palliative Care Nurse

My wife has worked for most of her professional life in the field of palliative care, although in recent years mostly as an educator, so the issues surrounding this question are very familiar to me. They are not simple issues and some of the "one size fits all" opinions which are touted in the public debate reflect both a want of sensitivity as well as a blatant lack of medical knowledge in the wider community when it comes to matters of terminal illness.

My sister died only a few months ago and my wife and I both travelled overseas to spend the last couple of weeks of her life with her. This was done at her request and we both regarded it as a signature privilege to share this final experience with her. This may sound somewhat macabre to many people but to us it was a most beautiful and natural thing to do and an experience I shall treasure for the rest of my life because for the past 40 years we had only ever got together a few times a year for perhaps a few days at a time. Elly was very ill but she was in full command of her capable mind and held no fears about her impending end. Although I indulged in some private moments of grief through this period it was mostly a time of joy and celebration when we were able to share in the exultation of an honourable life which had been meaningfully lived.

Elly believed in god but she regarded this faith as a strictly personal matter and she was not a particularly religious person. She never once considered ending her own life before its natural conclusion but she was perfectly sympathetic to the idea that others in such a situation should have every right to do so and that her god would not judge them harshly for such a choice. However she did say that had she chosen this option it would absolutely have to have been an act that she undertook herself alone and not one which she could ask any other person to participate in. This was her personal ethic and I both understood it and respected her for it but I also shared her opinion that one's personal ethics in such matters cannot be conflated with a social or legal policy. There are simply some aspects of the human journey where the law has no authority to intrude and as a humanist I regard the right to die with dignity as every much a human right as the right to live with dignity.

I held her hand as she took her last breath. I asked the god I stopped believing in at the age of 14 to take her into his heart and I didn't feel like a hypocrite for doing so because this was her business and none of mine.

Stand strong, Dalek.

I hadn't realized the loss of your sister was so recent, Leo, not that the passage of time truly matters. I'm truly sorry. We've reached that age where these matters can no longer be held at bay, try, and hope, as we might. Honestly, I never thought I'd see over fifty, it seemed so far away in my youth. Now I'm thinking of old age, and seeing, sometimes feeling, the reality of it. Reading glasses. A larger TV so I can make out the subtitles of the international films I do enjoy. Subtle aches and stiffness from just living. So much to ponder. All of us.

I'll be okay, though I find myself thinking of my brother, and wishing he was here, that I could talk to someone on my wavelength. I'm more concerned for my sister, who was closest to my father. I know she's not dealing well, though she puts up a front. So much pressure on her. Thankfully, we meet with the worker at two, tomorrow. And other finalities are arranged.

[Obvious Leo]

You mentioned that you and your sister are not close and it is to be hoped that an occasion such as this may draw you somewhat closer. Also I can well understand that the loss of your brother would a be a particularly poignant burden for you to shoulder at such a difficult time. This was not the case for me with my own family because although we are widely separated geographically we are all compulsive travellers and have always maintained a close contact with each other. I also have another sister and a brother as well as a father in his nineties who is still in reasonably good health. We all went through an almost identical ordeal five years ago when my mother died of exactly the same illness in remarkably similar circumstances so you might say we've had some unwanted experience in dealing with such matters. Unfortunately my father coped far better with the death of his wife of 60 years than he did with the death of his daughter and this still remains an ongoing concern for my siblings and I. As a parent and a grandparent I can well relate to his personal torment because such an eventuality runs contrary to the natural order of the human journey and is one which our minds instinctively refuse to contemplate. Obviously this is something which your own father also had to confront and for many this is a cross too heavy to bear.

[Acorn]

Individual people of sane/sound mind should have the choice of whether to end their lives or not. For example, if I'm in great pain with a terminal illness, I would like to be able to choose to end my suffering. No arguments could be successfully made that I should stay alive for a few more weeks in order to suffer great pain for a bit longer and then die. That is pointless and cruel. However, obviously it's not as simple as that. The illness of depression is a good example. A person suffering from depression can genuinely long-for and want suicide because of mental and emotional pain/numbness, but if they're denied the choice can often make a recovery and go on to live a wonderful life, have children, grandchildren etc, Thoughts and wishes of suicide in depressives can come and go. A person suffering agony close to death due to physical illness (or even someone who knows this is what's in store for them but isn't quite there yet) is a different matter. These two simple examples are different situations and perhaps should be treated differently. Legislation for wishing to terminate your life under these different conditions, and many more variations, could be too complicated to draw up, so perhaps a blanket denial of the right to end your own life is the easiest/cheapest option. Who can say what is the definition of a sane/sound mind? How many years would someone have to be genuinely wishing to end their life in order to be considered not to be having merely transient thoughts about it? It's extremely complex. But if I, or a loved one, developed a terminal illness and was dying, I would end my life if I felt I needed to (as would family members - I know this through discussion with them) - whether the law prohibited it or not.

[Obvious Leo]

Acorn. The question is not whether or not it should be either lawful or desirable for a person to end his own life. This is already assumed as a basic human right but the real question is whether or not it should be lawful or desirable for somebody else to do it on this person's behalf. This is a very complex legal and ethical question.

[Dalek Prime]

Acorn. The question is not whether or not it should be either lawful or desirable for a person to end his own life. This is already assumed as a basic human right but the real question is whether or not it should be lawful or desirable for somebody else to do it on this person's behalf. This is a very complex legal and ethical question.

I'm determined to figure the formula for barbies. Just for myself, of course.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Acorn. The question is not whether or not it should be either lawful or desirable for a person to end his own life. This is already assumed as a basic human right but the real question is whether or not it should be lawful or desirable for somebody else to do it on this person's behalf. This is a very complex legal and ethical question.

It was not until 1961 that the UK parliament put into words what had been practiced - that suicide was not a punishable offence.
However, other countries in the world are not the same as you would expect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation

India, Malaysia, Singapore attempted suicide is punishable by one year in prison, for example.

The US is a patchwork, and some state maintain the practice as illegal. Sadly none of them has figured out a way to punish those that have been successful.

[Obvious Leo]

I'm determined to figure the formula for barbies. Just for myself, of course.

They're not easily synthesized without the facilities of a fairly sophisticated laboratory and rather more than a layman's expertise in organic chemistry. However I'm fairly certain that a range of medical grade barbitals would be available through the illicit drug market for somebody determined enough to seek them out. All you need is a few disreputable mates and the right financial wherewithal.

Hobbes. I am aware that committing suicide is still a punishable offence in some countries but I thought it might be a bit indelicate to make light of such an absurd statute.

[Dalek Prime]

I'm determined to figure the formula for barbies. Just for myself, of course.

They're not easily synthesized without the facilities of a fairly sophisticated laboratory and rather more than a layman's expertise in organic chemistry. However I'm fairly certain that a range of medical grade barbitals would be available through the illicit drug market for somebody determined enough to seek them out. All you need is a few disreputable mates and the right financial wherewithal.
I was afraid you'd say that.

Hobbes. I am aware that committing suicide is still a punishable offence in some countries but I thought it might be a bit indelicate to make light of such an absurd statute.
That's why I keep saying there is no such thing as free disposal in terms of life. It's a bogus argument.

[Max Sitting]

Let’s say a person is stricken with a terminal illness and has only so long to live. The person desperately wants to live and does everything possible to stay alive. But the body continues to die. So how can this person be free when his body’s illness dictates what he will be, decides what he will be, orders his future shortened?

Instead of enjoying control over his body by seeking “activities conductive” to its “self-development” he is losing control over his body. Is this loss of control over the body a deprivation of freedom?

So the author points out that “people are the best judges of which activities are conducive to their own self-development; and that they are the most motivated to ensure they live the best lives they can.”

That applies to the terminally ill person and the person on death row too; the prisoner on death row can opt for a kind of euthania by refusing to appeal his conviction; or by hanging himself in his cell before getting gassed. It’s a choice for sure, but is it the kind of choice conductive to his self-development? Or a choice “most motivated to ensure” he’s living the best life he can?

[Dalek Prime]

You did your best, Dad, and it was good. I'll miss you. Goodbye.

[A_Seagull]

I see the issue of euthanasia as not so much a question of whether an individual has a right to die as it is a question of whether the state has a right to intervene.

I would aver that the state has no right to intervene. What would such a right be based upon? None; other than perhaps an unjustified and perverse desire to control the lives of others.