Is death a harm?

[Jaded Sage]

pain is harm.

No it's not. If I reset a dislocated shoulder, I'm hurting you, but I'm healing you, not harming you.

you might not be harming me, but i am being harmed by the pain (of both the dislocated shoulder, and its readjustment).

Nah, you're just misusing the word. Harmed by dislocation. Not harmed by relocation. Only pained by relocation.

[alpha]

Nah, you're just misusing the word. Harmed by dislocation. Not harmed by relocation. Only pained by relocation.

this is your philosophical position. mine is that all pain is harm, whether "beneficial" or not.

[Jaded Sage]

I think all harm is pain, but not all pain is harm. Harm means to injure. I can't injure you by fixing your shoulder.

[alpha]

I think all harm is pain, but not all pain is harm. Harm means to injure. I can't injure you by fixing your shoulder.

first, 'you' are not the object of my statements.

second, harm is not necessarily pain. something can be harming you without you feeling a thing.

in short: pain is bad > bad is harm.

[Jaded Sage]

Can you elaborate on the in short part. A you saying one is greater than the other?

[alpha]

Can you elaborate on the in short part. A you saying one is greater than the other?

i didn't mean greater. that (>) was supposed to be an arrow.

[Jaded Sage]

You made a good point about harm not necessarily being painful. But I still say death does no harm to the good man.

[alpha]

You made a good point about harm not necessarily being painful. But I still say death does no harm to the good man.

well, no more harm than "living" does, that's for sure.

[Jaded Sage]

Living well, surely.

[Dalek Prime]

Benatar may be right...doesn't change the fact that, for example, I'm 'here' and prefer 'here' to 'nowhere'. 'Here'' is preferable cuz I can exercise some control over 'here', can work to better a circumstance I find discomforting. I suppose if I were paralyzed from the neck down, I might have a different view on the matter, but, I'm not paralyzed or stupid (in a crippling way), so living is a good thing (miseries included).

Joy is temporary; so is misery, so why wallow constantly in the latter when the former is possible (at least once in a while)?

I've had major surgeries on legs and head, several years of painful recovery; the loss of friends dear to me; the slow erosions of privation; betrayals by family; the wholly natural reminders that I'm finite and will not 'be' forever, and on and on. I'm 53 and fully expect more miseries of all kinds in the future, and I still want to be 'here', still believe the exercise of myself, in service to myself and those I (imperfectly, grudgingly) love, is better than 'not here'.

I get that some find living impossible...I can only offer (useless) sympathy cuz I won't walk down their road...I simply can't.

Henry, that is what you are confusing. I am not advocating for existing beings, amd not talking about them. You exist. I exist. Let's make the most of that. We have no choice but to do that, or be miserable. I am, however, advocating for not bringing further existence into being, as there is no necessity to exist for them. And had we not been brought into existence, that would not have been a bad thing, and neither of us would have been any the wiser for it.

[Dalek Prime]

Not for the good man, not for the good man.

For every existent being who can dwell on it, until consciousness passes, then nothing.

Pain, not harm.

What fucking planet do you live on, exactly?

[Jaded Sage]

I live on the planet where relocating a dislocated shouldered causes pain but not harm. It's not harm, because it is not an injury. It hurts and heals, but does not harm.

[Dalek Prime]

I live on the planet where relocating a dislocated shouldered causes pain but not harm. It's not harm, because it is not an injury. It hurts and heals, but does not harm.

Fuck you. Let me dislocate your shoulder. No harm done.

[Jaded Sage]

Relocate, not dislocate.

[henry quirk]

"all pain is harm"

If I end up better off after experiencing pain, how am I harmed?

Inured is what I am, not injured.

Stress can break, but it can also build.