Serenity is the feeling that nothing is a waste of time

[Jaded Sage]

Yep, that's why definitions are so important. Ambiguity is the root of ignorance.

I was hoping someone would make a subtle distinction like that. Could you be a little more clear and elaborate a little more on the specific difference between meaning and value? What do you mean by the words?

Would it help to make a distinction between intrinsic value and instrumental value? I can help explain those tomorrow if needed.

[Lacewing]

Yep, that's why definitions are so important. Ambiguity is the root of ignorance.

I was hoping someone would make a subtle distinction like that. Could you be a little more clear and elaborate a little more on the specific difference between meaning and value? What do you mean by the words?

Would it help to make a distinction between intrinsic value and instrumental value? I can help explain those tomorrow if needed.

Meaning vs. value -- yes, they can definitely be overlapped. Depends on how they're being used, I guess. But the difference I was seeing as I wrote my post (if I can describe this) is that meaning requires some sort of definition, whereas value can be more of a state of mind. To value/appreciate/respect things does not require them to be fully defined. But for something to be assigned meaning, it is somehow defined. Does that make sense?

[alpha]

I think the OP was thought-provoking... even though I got lost in some of the responses.

I have heard that serenity is the feeling that nothing is a waste of time.

That works. It shows acceptance and appreciation of the moment, whatever that moment is.

When people ask about the meaninglessness of life are they really asking about the unhappiness of their own lives?

In most cases, I'm guessing yes.

There are various reasons for talking about "meaninglessness". People who think that life is supposed to have all kinds of specific meaning, might equate "meaninglessness" with "emptiness" (and I think most people fall into this category).

not emptiness per se, but purposelessness. life should have purpose, at least for intelligent creatures.


They might think that if you're not chasing after something or believing in something in particular, your life is void of meaning. Whereas there are those who are very content NOT assigning meaning to things -- rather, just watching things pass by like clouds, or interacting without expectations. Then there are those who believe that EVERYTHING has meaning/value/connectivity in this Earth realm, and that might make life feel magical.

I think the only meaning is what we "make up".

that's actually the definition of delusion "whatever one makes up" in their mind.


I can have fun with that... or I can set it aside. I don't think that meaning is necessary for happiness. But, I see VALUE in everything, for now. And I'm happy with that.

Perhaps people who don't see any value... try to shift focus away from their responsibility by saying something is meaningless... when actually there is nothing wrong with meaninglessness...

"nothing wrong with meaninglessness"? really? maybe for animals, or babies, but for intelligent adults, i think there's something seriously wrong with meaninglessness.

and it's instead the person who is deficient in finding value in whatever comes along.

"finding value in whatever comes along?" don't you mean "forcing value into whatever comes along"? or "making something out of nothing"?

[marjoram_blues]

JS: I have heard that serenity is the feeling that nothing is a waste of time.

Where did you hear this?

I can't remember. Does it matter?

It matters in the sense of giving it some context. Also, I usually like to follow any potential words of wisdom to their source.
No matter if you can't remember.

How do you define 'Serenity' ?

Good point. It was just a quote I found. The first part is "bordem" is the feeling that everything is a waste of time. It might cheer some of us up to know that we are not sad, only bored. Once I heard that definition of serenity I fell in love with it. It also seemed very true. The only problem is that it seems inspiration and serenity are often in the same place at the same time. So I wonder if inspiration can be defined as a kind of excited serenity.

Thanks for remembering the other part of the quote. I found the full version:
'Boredom is the feeling that everything is a waste of time; serenity that nothing is' - Thomas Szasz. According to wiki, it's taken from ''Emotions'' - p.36 'The Second Sin' (1973). A collection of observations and quips. Not sure if it is offered up within any specific, substantial context, or just one of those throw-away clever sound-bites that people scroll down and click with.

Is this where you read it?
And is it from Szasz that you heard about a seemingly problematic connection between inspiration and serenity? Not exactly sure what the problem might be.

[marjoram_blues]

This was so close to being actual philosophy.

Can I be brutally honest? I'd be embrassed to put thoughts like this on the internet. It's a cowardly thing to run away from a point. At least one of you tried.

Please tell me what is embarrassing about the posters expressing their thoughts on this thread?
The terms 'cowardly' and 'brave' have been increasingly sprinkled about the PN forum re contributions, or lack thereof. How helpful do you think this is in promoting a good atmosphere within which people can explore their thoughts/beliefs, or not - as they see fit?

Such a judgement about a thread's, or poster's, content or value is both premature and demeaning.

[Lacewing]

Alpha, these are all just words that can be used in a variety of ways, and I was trying to answer in the spirit of the OP. That said, here's my response to you...

People who think that life is supposed to have all kinds of specific meaning, might equate "meaninglessness" with "emptiness"

not emptiness per se, but purposelessness. life should have purpose, at least for intelligent creatures.

I was responding directly to the question in the OP "When people ask about the meaninglessness of life are they really asking about the unhappiness of their own lives?" What I said above is one possibility.

As for your statement that "life should have purpose", I agree that purpose is a motivating and invigorating driver in life. There may be other people like myself who think that there is no ULTIMATE meaning or purpose to life or anything, but in my daily life, I assign purpose to all kinds of things. I see any meaning/purpose as part of this life experience ONLY... and not representative of anything beyond this. It is possible to make this distinction and be happy and fulfilled and grateful every day for this experience, and not be afraid of dying either.

I think the only meaning is what we "make up".

that's actually the definition of delusion "whatever one makes up" in their mind.

Right. We make up a lot of stuff that isn't true. What do you call that?

"nothing wrong with meaninglessness"? really? maybe for animals, or babies, but for intelligent adults, i think there's something seriously wrong with meaninglessness.

It may be easiest to consider this concept of "meaninglessness" in more "ultimate" terms... for example, there are many people (including myself) who do not think there is some ultimate meaning. And there is nothing wrong with that, for those of us who think that way. I can also bring it down to earth in this way: " Does something need to have meaning in order to be appreciated and loved?" For example, a sunset, a rock, a blade of grass, a dragonfly, etc. When I see those things, I do not have some "meaning" for them in mind, yet I appreciate/enjoy them very much. We don't have to assign meaning to everything... or even have constant thoughts... to be present and aware and full of love. That is why I said there is nothing wrong with meaninglessness. It all depends on your perspective and what context you are putting it in.

"finding value in whatever comes along?"

don't you mean "forcing value into whatever comes along"? or "making something out of nothing"?

No. I'm not sure why you're saying this. I was trying to say that people who don't see any value, may claim there is none to be seen -- without considering that it may be their own limitation that prevents them from seeing value in the things they encounter. Just because something isn't true, or agreed with, or for some certain agenda, doesn't mean it doesn't present an opportunity for value on some level.

Did I help clarify for you what I was saying... even if you see things differently?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Bullshit. You don't know the meaning of death.

and i suppose you do? tell me, how many times have you died?


You're just delusional. If serenity is delusion then you have it.

Death is not a thing you do. Death is not doing.

[alpha]

Did I help clarify for you what I was saying... even if you see things differently?

i suppose.

[alpha]

Bullshit. You don't know the meaning of death.

and i suppose you do? tell me, how many times have you died?


You're just delusional. If serenity is delusion then you have it.

Death is not a thing you do. Death is not doing.

i meant "do you know the meaning of death?". the only way to know, is to have died, and come back, at least once.

[Hobbes' Choice]

i meant "do you know the meaning of death?". the only way to know, is to have died, and come back, at least once.

Rubbish. This perfectly exemplifies the fact that you do not understand the meaning of death.
There is no coming back- that's why they call it death.

[Jaded Sage]

Yep, that's why definitions are so important. Ambiguity is the root of ignorance.

I was hoping someone would make a subtle distinction like that. Could you be a little more clear and elaborate a little more on the specific difference between meaning and value? What do you mean by the words?

Would it help to make a distinction between intrinsic value and instrumental value? I can help explain those tomorrow if needed.

Meaning vs. value -- yes, they can definitely be overlapped. Depends on how they're being used, I guess. But the difference I was seeing as I wrote my post (if I can describe this) is that meaning requires some sort of definition, whereas value can be more of a state of mind. To value/appreciate/respect things does not require them to be fully defined. But for something to be assigned meaning, it is somehow defined. Does that make sense?

Sort of. I am still unclear what you yourself mean by meaning but I suggest we use your word appreciation instead of value. For meaningful, I'd like to put forth "worthwhile" as that seems to match the quote we're working with. I'm open to other suggestions.

[Jaded Sage]

Thanks for remembering the other part of the quote. I found the full version:
'Boredom is the feeling that everything is a waste of time; serenity that nothing is' - Thomas Szasz. According to wiki, it's taken from ''Emotions'' - p.36 'The Second Sin' (1973). A collection of observations and quips. Not sure if it is offered up within any specific, substantial context, or just one of those throw-away clever sound-bites that people scroll down and click with.

Is this where you read it?
And is it from Szasz that you heard about a seemingly problematic connection between inspiration and serenity? Not exactly sure what the problem might be.

Yes, Szaz. No, I noticed the part about inspiration on my own. I have a lot of free time, lol.

[Jaded Sage]

This was so close to being actual philosophy.

Can I be brutally honest? I'd be embrassed to put thoughts like this on the internet. It's a cowardly thing to run away from a point. At least one of you tried.

Please tell me what is embarrassing about the posters expressing their thoughts on this thread?
The terms 'cowardly' and 'brave' have been increasingly sprinkled about the PN forum re contributions, or lack thereof. How helpful do you think this is in promoting a good atmosphere within which people can explore their thoughts/beliefs, or not - as they see fit?

Such a judgement about a thread's, or poster's, content or value is both premature and demeaning.

Thoughts? Nothing. Thoughts are beautiful. Bullshit is embarassing.

I think it might be helpful to inform a coward of what is cowardly. Running away and dodging a point, and changing the subject when inappropriate are cowardly acts. They demean themselves. The comments I myself have made are post-mature.

[alpha]

i meant "do you know the meaning of death?". the only way to know, is to have died, and come back, at least once.

Rubbish. This perfectly exemplifies the fact that you do not understand the meaning of death.
There is no coming back- that's why they call it death.

it's like talking to a wall.

[Lacewing]

I am still unclear what you yourself mean by meaning.

I'm thinking of "meaning" as only that which we define something to mean. Otherwise, it does not "mean" anything. It just is. Meaning is a human construct. I'm guessing that "meanings" only happen by relating things to other things, and there is never one, specific meaning, among all who apply meanings. We're all making it up (for ourselves) as we go. I don't think that human meanings and constructs extend or transfer beyond our human life. That would seem extraordinarily limited and unrealistic for any broader scope! It is possible to enjoy this experience, just as it is, without applying meaning to everything within it and beyond it.